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Post Info TOPIC: The next serious threat to internet radio... :(


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The next serious threat to internet radio... :(


I fear this is coming within the next year or two cry.gif 

It could certainly keep us from being able to broadcast, and I'm SURE it would lead to 99% of companies banning their employees from listening to streamed radio. hmm.gif

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Tiered pricing takes aim at bandwidth hogs

By BRIAN STELTER
New York Times
Posted: June 14, 2008

Some people use the Internet simply to check e-mail and look up phone numbers. Others are online all day, downloading big video and music files.

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Should they pay the same price for access?

For years they have, with subscribers sharing a buffet of all-you-can-download Internet access, regardless of how much they consumed.

But now three of the countrys largest Internet service providers are threatening to clamp down on their most active subscribers by placing monthly limits on their online activity.

One of them, Time Warner Cable, began a trial of Internet metering in one Texas city this month, asking customers to select a monthly plan and pay surcharges when they exceed their bandwidth limit.

The idea is that people who use the network more heavily should pay more, the way they do for water, electricity, or, in many cases, cell phone minutes.

That same week, Comcast said that it would expand on a strategy it uses to manage Internet traffic: slowing down the connections of the heaviest users, so-called bandwidth hogs, at peak times.

AT&T also said Thursday that limits on heavy use were inevitable and that it was considering pricing based on data volume.

Based on current trends, total bandwidth in the AT&T network will increase by four times over the next three years, the company said in a statement.

All three companies say that placing caps on broadband use will ensure fair access for all users.

Internet metering is a throwback to the days of dial-up service, but at a time when video and interactive games are becoming popular, the experiments could have huge implications for the Web.

Millions of people are moving online to watch movies and television shows, play multiplayer video games and talk via videoconference with family and friends. And media companies are trying to get people to spend more time online: The Disneys and NBCs of the world keep adding television shows and movies to their Web sites, giving consumers convenient entertainment that soaks up a lot of bandwidth.

Moreover, companies with physical storefronts, such as Blockbuster, are moving toward digital delivery of entertainment. And new distributors of online content think YouTube are relying on an open data spigot to make their business plans work.

Critics of the bandwidth limits say that metering and capping network use could hold back the inevitable convergence of television, computers and the Internet.

The Internet is how we deliver our shows, said Jim Louderback, chief executive of Revision3, a three-year-old media company that runs what it calls a television network on the Web. If all of a sudden our viewers are worried about some sort of a broadband cap, they may think twice about downloading or watching our shows.

Question of fairness

Even if the caps are far above the average users consumption, their mere existence could cause users to reduce their time online. Just ask people who carefully monitor their monthly allotments of cell phone minutes and text messages.

As soon as you put serious uncertainty as to cost on the table, peoples feeling of freedom to predict cost dries up and so does innovation and trying new applications, Vint Cerf, the chief Internet evangelist for Google who is often called the father of the Internet, said in an e-mail message.

But the companies imposing the caps say that their actions are only fair. People who use more network capacity should pay more, Time Warner argues. And Comcast says that people who use too much such as those who engage in file-sharing should be forced to slow down.

Time Warner also frames the issue in financial terms: The broadband infrastructure needs to be improved, it says, and maybe metering could pay for the upgrades. So far its trial is limited to new subscribers in Beaumont, Texas, a city of roughly 110,000.

In that trial, new customers can buy plans with a 5-gigabyte cap, a 20-gigabyte cap or a 40-gigabyte cap. Prices for those plans range from $30 to $50. Above the cap, customers pay $1 a gigabyte. Plans with higher caps come with faster service.

Average customers are way below the caps, said Kevin Leddy, executive vice president for advanced technology at Time Warner Cable. These caps give them years worth of growth before theyd ever pay any surcharges.

Casual Internet users who merely send e-mail messages, check movie times and read the news are not likely to exceed the caps. But people who watch television shows on Hulu.com, rent movies on iTunes or play the multiplayer game Halo on Xbox may start to exceed the limits and millions of people are already doing those things.

Streaming an hour of video on Hulu, which shows programs such as Saturday Night Live, Family Guy and The Daily Show With Jon Stewart, consumes about 200 megabytes, or one-fifth of a gigabyte. A higher-quality hour of the same content bought through Apples iTunes store can use about 500 megabytes, or half a gigabyte.

A high-definition episode of Survivor on CBS.com can use up to a gigabyte, and a DVD-quality movie through Netflixs new online service can eat up about 5 gigabytes. One Netflix download alone, in fact, could bring a user to the limit on the cheapest plan in Time Warners trial in Beaumont.

Even services such as Skype and Vonage that use the Internet to transmit phone calls could help put users over the monthly limits.

Time Warner would not reveal how many gigabytes an average customer uses, saying only that 95% of customers use under 40 gigabytes each in a month.

That means that 5% of customers use more than 50% of the networks overall capacity, the company said, and many of those people are assumed to be sharing copyrighted video and music files illegally.

Just like old times

The Time Warner plan has the potential to bring Internet use full circle, back to the days when pay-as-you-go pricing held back the Webs popularity.

In the early days of dial-up access, America Online and other providers offered tiered pricing, in part because audio and video were barely viable online. Consumers feared going over their allotted time and bristled at the idea that access to cyberspace was billed by the hour.

In 1996, when AOL started offering unlimited access plans, Internet use took off and the online world started moving to the center of peoples daily lives. Today most Internet packages provide a seemingly unlimited amount of capacity, at least from the consumers perspective.

But like water and electricity, even digital resources are finite.

How much is too much?

Last year Comcast disclosed that it was temporarily turning off the connections of customers who used file-sharing services such as BitTorrent, arguing that they were slowing things down for everyone else.

The people who got cut off complained and asked how much broadband use was too much; the company did not have a ready answer.

Thus, like Time Warner, Comcast is considering a form of Internet metering that would apply to all online activity.

The goal, says Mitch Bowling, a senior vice president at Comcast, is ensuring that a small number of users dont impact the experience for everyone else.

Last year Comcast was sued when it was disclosed that the company had singled out BitTorrent users.

In February, Comcast departed from that approach and started collaborating with the company that runs BitTorrent. Now it has shifted to what it calls a platform agnostic approach to managing its network, meaning that it slows down the connection of any customer who uses too much bandwidth at congested times.

Bowling said that typical Internet usage would not be affected. But on the Internet, typical use is constantly being redefined.

The definitions of low and high usage today are meaningless, because the Internets going to grow, and nothings going to stop that, said Eric Klinker, the chief technology officer of BitTorrent.

As the technology company Cisco Systems put it in a recent report, todays bandwidth hog is tomorrows average user.

One result of these experiments is a tug-of-war between the Internet providers and media companies, which are monitoring the Time Warner experiment with trepidation.

We hate it, said a senior executive at a major media company, who requested anonymity because his company, like all broadcasters, must play nice with the same cable operators that are imposing the limits. Now that some television shows are viewed millions of times online, the executive said, any impediment would hurt the advertising model for online video streaming.

Leddy of Time Warner said that the media companies fears were overblown. If the company were to try to stop Web video, we would not succeed, he said.



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Ghost In The Machine

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Whoa.....this is gonna tick off a lot of serious online gamers!  Online game playing is what really drives Xbox 360 and PS3 game sales.  Halo is huge online, along with Guitar Hero 3.  Add in all the online content that can be downloaded for all of the gaming systems, and people are gonna be p*ssed to have to pay more!! 

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2011 Super Bowl Champions!

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Yeah, this could stop the whole internet growth spurt in it's tracks. I think they'll run into massive backlash on this.

I for one would shut the station down and immediately find the cheapest internet provider I could.

ALSO, We've seen this crap with the cell phone companies. Once all the major players are doing it one of them will want to increase market share and start offering unlimited again, then they'll all do battle to win back as many customers as they can.

I swear sometimes it seems like big business is run by nothing more than short sighted morons.

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aw I bet its years of talk and litigation before its strictly enforced. I just hope its not one of them situtations where its like "OH OK AND ONE DAY HERE IS YOUR BILL AND YA ITS BIGGER". Where we need to backtrack and meanwhile pay more while its in litigation..... Heavy user....thats so vague at this point....bleh.gif

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2011 Super Bowl Champions!

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The fact they're already testing it out on actual people makes me real nervous.

And I'd be awful ticked if I lived in beaumont, Texas and I was one of the only people in the entire country being forced to pay by usage.

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Ghost In The Machine

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I know my house is probably higher than average usage.  I have two teens that practically live on the internet.  hmm

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Well, it wouldn't take me long to reach the limits when I'm streaming 96 kb per second. Not to mention the bandwith used everytime someone makes a request. Plus my normal surfing. Plus downloading 50 or so albums a month.

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In the early 90's I was on Prodigy. Kind of the precurser to the internet.

I recall near the mid nineties they decided to start charging per email. I think it was five cents for every email.

The thing that made them big to begin with was the fact they were the first service that had email and bulletin boards.

Soon after they started charging they lost a huge portion of their customer base. I remember being part of a movement to try and get the to change their mind, and I was one of the ones that cancelled my service before I ever paid my first nickel.

Within a few months they dropped the charger per email, but it was too late, they never got their market share back, Compuserve took off and Prodigy was gone a few years later.

learn from history you greedy a-holes!

-- Edited by Jeremy Riggs at 20:09, 2008-06-15

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could you be doing alot of this via a proxy server? might that help mask usuage??confused.gif

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Ghost In The Machine

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What ticks me off is that they've known for some time now that the internet needs restructuring......why haven't they been socking away some of the fee money we pay our ISP's to pay for the restructuring!! 

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JD The Jazz Doctor wrote:

could you be doing alot of this via a proxy server? might that help mask usuage??confused.gif






Web might be able to tell me differently but I don't think so.

I have to access the web through the provider, so they're going to ultimately know how much bandwidth I'm using. If I COULD go around their monitoring I would just be opening myself up to a huge lawsuit if I were ever caught. I'm sure they'd want to make an example of anyone that cheated the system.

Just like somehow the RIAA is allowed to get $200,000 for every instance of an illegal song download.

That's something I just never understood. You "stole" a 99 cent song so now you legally owe us $200,000.00.

blankstare.gif

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Ghost In The Machine

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I know I was really nervous during the whole Napster thing.  I thought for sure they were going to come after me.  I still don't know how I escaped it.  weirdface

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My understanding is that this will really only effect a very small few. I've heard that they are looking at numbers like 40 gigs/month being excessive. You don't come even remotely close to that kind of usage for daily radio usage.

I've heard numbers like 5% of the people are using 90% of the ISP's bandwidth and its mostly going for movie downloads and bit torent file sharing.

40 gigs would be about 8 full length DVD's.

They can certainly change what they consider "excessive" but what I'm hearing right now, most of us are not even close to being in the category effected.



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The article I included claims one movie download from netflix can be 5 GB.

I like the line the last guy quoted had "Todays bandwidth hog is tomorrows average user"

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JD The Jazz Doctor wrote:

could you be doing alot of this via a proxy server? might that help mask usuage??confused.gif




No, that wouldn't work. A proxy can hide your identity to things "past" the proxy, but you have to go through your ISP to get to the proxy. All your traffic in and out of the proxy still goes through the ISP to get there.


 

 



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I guess, when I download a full album that's about 50 to 60 MB, so 20 of them would only be 1 GB.

If the limit were 40 I might get by ok.

But they limits supposedly will be set on how fast of a connection you get. So I would probably have to get their top line package to get 40. Right now I'm at there bottom package which would probably get only 10 GB.

I'm gonna see if I can find the website for beaumont, TX and see if they have details.

Then I'm gonna NOT WORRY ABOUT IT until they try to push it on me somewhere down the road. (A lil' lesson I learned today in cyber church) smile.gif

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WebGuy wrote:

JD The Jazz Doctor wrote:

could you be doing alot of this via a proxy server? might that help mask usuage??confused.gif




No, that wouldn't work. A proxy can hide your identity to things "past" the proxy, but you have to go through your ISP to get to the proxy. All your traffic in and out of the proxy still goes through the ISP to get there.


 

 






ah that makes total sense. thanks web!smile.gif

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From the Beaumont, TX, Time-Warner web-site:

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Now when you sign up for blazing-fast Road Runner High Speed Internet Service, our Select Plan lets you choose a plan that fits your Internet use.

Please vist selfcare.rr.com to view your current bandwidth level and also to check your usage at any time. When logging in, simply use your Road Runner e-mail address and corresponding password and select the usage tab to see your daily, hourly and monthly usage.

Four levels of service are available, including:


Turbo Tier 40GB
Frequent online gamers and movie watchers will love the maximum bandwidth we offer.


Standard Tier 20GB
Ideal for e-mail users, music downloaders and occasional gamers or movie watchers.


Basic Tier 10GB


If youre a Web browser, light e-mail user, share photos and download music, this is the tier for you.

Lite Tier 5GB
If you just like to e-mail and browse the Web, Lite is right.



What does 1 GB get you?
So you can better understand what level you should choose, 1GB gets you about 70,000 e-mails, 34 hours of gaming or 1,344 hours of Web browsing; or, its the approximate equivalent of downloading 569 photos, 277 music files, 7 hours of low-resolution video (YouTube), 3 hours of standard definition streaming video or 45 minutes of high-definition streaming video.
If you utilize more bandwidth than your Road Runner Select Plan package allows, you may either move to a higher tier of Road Runner service, which not only provides faster speeds but also provides more bandwidth per month; or, you may choose to stay at the same tier of service and be charged a $1 per GB per month for additional usage.



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Well, the last paragraph eases my concerns a bit smile.gif

I think Web is right, it may not have too big of an effect, although I would think the uploading station stream would add up over a month.

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If they try to start charging more for internet, then I should be able to get the same rate scale for cable tv. I never watch tv, so I'd never have it on, so I shouldn't have to pay as much as the people who literally have it on 24-7.

My point is, they can try to rationalize it as much as they can, but no, it's not fair.

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Ghost In The Machine

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Thanks for putting that up JR.  After looking at it, I'm thinking we wouldn't be in the highest category. 

Glad you know for yourself what kind of service you'd have to get if it comes down to this.  smile

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maybe we need to align the station riggs with like a non-profit agency that receives federal grants. that way we could say "well yea we have GREAT music, which draws people in, and we will air your 30 second ads once each hour". what a great way to get your message out! now give us $50,000 of that grant money and we will start RIGHT NOW! nod.gif

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MzHartz wrote:

If they try to start charging more for internet, then I should be able to get the same rate scale for cable tv. I never watch tv, so I'd never have it on, so I shouldn't have to pay as much as the people who literally have it on 24-7.

My point is, they can try to rationalize it as much as they can, but no, it's not fair.






That is an EXCELLENT point MZ. EXCELLENT. I'm sure someone will raise it when they start actually trying to force the change on people.

They've been fighting ala cart cable at every turn, this would really kind of make them look hypocritical.

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MzHartz wrote:

If they try to start charging more for internet, then I should be able to get the same rate scale for cable tv. I never watch tv, so I'd never have it on, so I shouldn't have to pay as much as the people who literally have it on 24-7.

My point is, they can try to rationalize it as much as they can, but no, it's not fair.






this is a very good point. I don't watch much tv. sign me up for the premium package tho, I like knowing I could watch anything I want. oh I did not turn it on this month. no bill. nod.gif

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"And like Web, I enjoy throwing JR under the bus.  Problem is, it's usually under the special bus that I ride every day". Ghostdancer 12-18-09


Ghost In The Machine

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MzHartz wrote:

If they try to start charging more for internet, then I should be able to get the same rate scale for cable tv. I never watch tv, so I'd never have it on, so I shouldn't have to pay as much as the people who literally have it on 24-7.

My point is, they can try to rationalize it as much as they can, but no, it's not fair.



Mz, you don't want to get me started about a scale system for tv!!  Right now I pay for over 600 channels, and we only watch 10-15 of those.  I really wish the cable tv and satellite services would come up with a "pay only for the channels you actually watch" package!!!!!  furious

 



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Yeah, that's why I refuse to get cable. People think I'm nuts, but I'm not paying those prices for something I would use very rarely.

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Ghost In The Machine

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I can't stand regular network tv shows; haven't watched any of them in years.  But I do like to watch movies, so I regularly watch Turner Classic Movies, AMC, the Chiller station, and Sci-fi channel.  My girls watch Bravo and VH1; hubby watches History, Biography, and Nat'l Geo.  I pay $69 a month and this is all we watch.  hmmWe don't have the premium movie channels because that would tack on an additional $33 per month. 

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PBS for $0 suits me fine.

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I won't PAY to WATCH TV!? its not even AD FREE TV??? heck no. I think once I need one of them hd converter boxes, I will just thow the thing out. a nice chair would look good where I keep the tv.doh.gif

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Ghost In The Machine

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MzHartz wrote:

PBS for $0 suits me fine.




 I wish I could get PBS under the program tier I'm paying for; but nooooo, if I want that, cough up another $5 a month!!  Oh, and then I have to buy a different satellite dish too....it has to have 2 of those prong type thingies in order for me to get it.  hmm



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