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Post Info TOPIC: What the????


Grand Poobah

    



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What the????


Cheney urges exception to torture ban for CIA
Vice president makes closed-door appeal to GOP senators


The Associated Press
Updated: 11:11 p.m. ET Nov. 4, 2005


WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney made an unusual personal appeal to Republican senators this week to allow CIA exemptions to a proposed ban on the torture of terror suspects in U.S. custody, according to participants in a closed-door session.


Cheney told his audience the United States doesn’t engage in torture, these participants added, even though he said the administration needed an exemption from any legislation banning “cruel, inhuman or degrading” treatment in case the president decided one was necessary to prevent a terrorist attack.


The vice president made his comments at a regular weekly private meeting of Senate Republican senators, according to several lawmakers who attended. Cheney often attends the meetings, a chance for the rank-and-file to discuss legislative strategy, but he rarely speaks.


In this case, the room was cleared of aides before the vice president began his remarks, said by one senator to include a reference to classified material. The officials who disclosed the events spoke on condition of anonymity, citing the confidential nature of the discussion.


“The vice president’s office doesn’t have any comment on a private meeting with members of the Senate,” Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for Cheney, said on Friday.


The vice president drew support from at least one lawmaker, Sen. Jeff Sessions of Alabama, while Arizona Sen. John McCain dissented, officials said.


McCain, who was tortured while held as a prisoner during the Vietnam War, is the chief Senate sponsor of an anti-torture provision that has twice cleared the Senate and triggered veto threats from the White House.


Cheney a point man on contentious issue
Cheney’s decision to speak at the meeting underscored both his role as White House point man on the contentious issue and the importance the administration attaches to it.


The vice president made his appeal at a time Congress is struggling with the torture issue in light of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and allegations of mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The United States houses about 500 detainees at the naval base there, many of them captured in Afghanistan.


Additionally, human rights organizations contend the United States turns detainees over to other countries that it knows will use torture to try and extract intelligence information.



Powell aide claims paper-trail on abuse
Cheney’s appeal came two days before a former senior State Department official claimed in an interview with National Public Radio’s “Morning Edition” that he had traced paperwork back to Cheney’s office that he believes led to U.S. troops abusing prisoners in Iraq.


“It was clear to me there that there was a visible audit trail from the vice president’s office through the secretary of defense down to the commanders in the field,” Lawrence Wilkerson, a former colonel who was Secretary of State Colin Powell’s chief of staff during President Bush’s first term, said Thursday.


Wilkerson said the view of Cheney’s office was put in “carefully couched” terms but that to a soldier in the field it meant sometimes using interrogation techniques that “were not in accordance with the spirit of the Geneva Conventions and the law of war.” He said he no longer has access to the paperwork.


Cheney spokeswoman Jennifer Mayfield declined to comment on Wilkerson’s remarks.


White House, CIA apply pressure
The Senate recently approved a provision banning the “cruel, inhuman or degrading” treatment of detainees in U.S. custody. The vote was 90-9, and an identical provision was added to a second measure on a voice vote on Friday.


Comparable House legislation does not include a similar provision, and it is not clear whether anti-torture language will be included in either of two large defense measures Congress hopes to send to Bush’s desk later this year.


The White House initially tried to kill the anti-torture provision while it was pending in the Senate, then switched course to lobby for an exemption in cases of “clandestine counterterrorism operations conducted abroad, with respect to terrorists who are not citizens of the United States.” The president would have to approve the exemption, and Defense Department personnel could not be involved. In addition, any activity would have to be consistent with the Constitution, federal law and U.S. treaty obligations, according to draft changes in the exemption the White House is seeking.


Cheney also has met several times with McCain, including one session that CIA Director Porter Goss attended in a secure room in the Capitol.



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What?!!!! I'm speechless, that's all I can say. I always try to see both sides, but I'm having a hard time seeing the other side here. Can anyone tell me how this is appropriate? He's pushing the envelope too far...

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Alright, let me just throw this crazy scenario out there to find out where you guys are on this issue.

Let's say we know there is a nuclear device hidden somewhere downtown New York. A terrorist is in CIA or FBI custody and laughing at us, telling us millions of us infidel pigs will die in two hours.

In this case, would you still want us to stick to our morals and not torture this captive to save the lives of millions?

No judgements here, I'm just asking.

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PS. I realize this is an EXTREME example, I just want to know if it would change your view at that point.

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First of all, how would we have found out about the nuclear device to begin with?

If we did toture this terrorist, how do we know he even knows where it is?

And finally, if we did decide to torture him (which still goes against every moral fiber of my being), permission should be sought for that case only. It should be on a case by case basis, only in extreme circumstances, it should not be a blanket cause!!!!!

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The problem is that no one would be satisfied with "permission" being sought in that case because it would wind up coming down to one judge or one government official making the decision because of the time-frame involved.

The reason this raises my interest is because I think most people would agree in that situation that we have the right (and I beleive in THAT situation we would have the right even under God) to do whatever it takes to get the information.

So then, you have to start asking where the line is. What if WE were certain he had the information, but he wasn't admitting it? What if evidence suggested he were involved but there wasn't time to be certain of it, do we let millions die because we weren't sure?

I think it's a fascinating topic that goes much deeper than just a question of cruelty.

As for my own feelings, I just thank God there's people out there willing to take any steps necesarry to secure my safety and my freedom.

There's a story breaking right now that we have secret holding facilities in several countries around the globe, specifically used to hold, interrogate, and possibly torture Al Qaida members.

I imagine that will be exploding soon.

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Don't get me wrong, I am glad they are there. But I don't trust CIA Intelligence. Failed us immensly the past few years. What if they thought the terrorist was you, and it wasn't but they didn't believe you. Here they would be stuffing your own arm down your throat. Electrodes to your privates, or like McCain, where they tie you to the ground outside for 4 years and just start beating you with clubs?  

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Oh wait, this is America, it would be HUMANE TORTURE I am sure!

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lol. You know, I KNOW you're going to find this hard to beleive.

But if I were suspected of being a terrorist I would not blame them for doing what they had to in order to get information out of me.

I'm assuming there would be some VERY good circumstantial evidence at the least, and my personal rights should not supercede the basic right to safety and freedom of millions of innocent people.

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wow!!!!


OK. I respect your opinion. I just saw this today and had to rub my eyes. WHere the hell has Cheney been since the leak, and BAM here was this. I thought I was dreaming. What a world where issues like this even have to come up hey? What a world....



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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

People, this isnt an ABC after School special....

There are some bad people out there. Things like the Geneva convention were signed by civilized countries to try and minimize the horrors of war.

To the best of my knowledge, Al Queda and Osama havent signed such a declaration...in fact they prefer to make people beg for their lives before filming their beheading.

Was 911 a wake up call? These guys arent playing by any rules and prefer to kill American civilians to make us alter our course through public opinion...WAKE UP....They could have stopped Hitler in 1933...the world waited and then it took the whole world to stop him...IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT!

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Its an issue of trusting CIA INTELLIGENCE to know what's best, what's right. Like with that whole crashing of planes into building thing, and that war because of weapons of mass destruction (which seems to be nothing more than effective car bombs and bombs strapped beneath clothing).


Proactivity, PREVENTION, thats where the energy & attention (NOT TO MENTION MONEY) should be. I'd say that if somehow someone got a nuke into the US, and it was about to go off in the first place, then the cia spent tooo much time in meetings and classrooms practicing tourture techniques.


Don't get me wrong, the bad guys deserve to be treated like the dogs they are. But why hasn't Osama ever been found? How about focusing on that instead of making sure that in some hypothetical situation you might be able break arms into a thousand pieces in the name of what's good, what's right.



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JD...our intelligence stops dozens if not hundreds or thousands of credible attempts...but we will never know....

We have to be right every time...

They only have to be right ONCE!

Our intelligence hasnt been perfect....

But to undermine a whole agency....we are fighting a differnt kind of enemy here, and we need people on the ground doing intelligence work...it takes time to gear up .

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well torture has worked effectively with other regimes, why not this one then....

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I say we pipe in some of the early Jazz 101's and make the terrorists listen to the African Leaf Carrying song. NOW THAT'S TORTURE!

The thing is, this stuff has been going on since the dawn of time. Republican president, Democratic president, it doesn't matter. The only difference is that now it's next to impossible to maintain secrecy.

Again, I say do what you have to do so my family and I can live in freedom and security.

JD brought up sarcastically how well torture has worked in other regimes. (It actually worked like a CHARM in Saddam's regime, it's why he could be a dictator all those years). But the United States is different. The President is practically just a figure head. We have so many checks and balances in place that I don't believe for a minute we would ever get so out of control that we would start dragging average Americans out of their homes and torturing them.

That's just a scare tactic. The whole "what's next, can they get me because I check a book out of the library" crap.

However, I'm still not necessarily saying it's right or wrong, all I'm saying is I think God there's people who will do the dirty work I would never have the stomach for.

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War isnt pretty JD...I agree that torture isnt necessarily the first choice of civilized countries...but how many of our soldiers have been tortured in this conflict?

Ask Jessica Lynch.

Do 2 wrongs make a right? You wouldnt think so...but JD, this isnt gentlemen's rules boxing...

From everything I have read, it is our last resort...it is Al Queda's first...The prisoners at Guantanamo Bay have a better standard of living than we do.
So it is an ugly business...would you or I want to do it? I am guessing no. But to say it isnt done or it has no place in war...that is naive.

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Would torture be an effective means of extracting information from someone who is willing to die anyhow?


I don't know. I mean sure it WILL happen, be there exemptions and laws and whatnot anyhow. And its probably justified. I just dont like the governmental seal of approval that says YEA ITS OK TO TORTURE. This government, whom I pay for every friggin check is to represent me,and federally legalized torture simply doesn't represent me. There has got to be a different and effective way of extracting information from a suspect (mind you someone not found guilty, but a suspect....)


Want to talk about the perils of BIG GOVERNMENT?!?!LOL



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Grand Poobah

    



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WWJD?

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Severe pain would most likely be more of a motivator than a quick death. It would be for me anyway.

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I'll fight in WWJD!

Where do I sign up? Who's side am I on? Are uniforms cool?

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probably pink I am guessing LOL

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Frankly, I don't trust our government and CIA to be able to draw the line between when the situation is extreme enough for torture. Just because someone isn't American, just because they are on the losing side, doesn't mean they're not human. Allowing torture would open the floodgates for any POW to be tortured. I think it would get out of control. We're supposed to be a civilized country. Just because the enemy isn't, doesn't give us the right to stoop to their level.

In my heart, I believe torture is inhumane, cruel, and wrong. Even if you could get me to agree to allowing torture in a few extreme cases, I don't believe it should be generally allowed. I stand by my opinion that permission should be sought for extreme cases. I don't care if anyone would be satisified with the decision. If we can't come to a decision on one case, why should we just make it acceptable for all cases?

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I think recent circumstances involving the federal government shows that its all too human, in fact in some cases, inferior to that. FEMA, idiotic judicial nominations, closed door "grand-standing", the list goes on and on...I am a tax payer, and I am not satisfied with what I am paying for!! Haven't been in years!

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Well the judicial nominations may reverse Roe vs Wade...abortion...you know...fetus torture....I AM against that kind of torture

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oh me too, mind you. I didn't mean the issues, I meant the appointed clowns.

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I thought Justice Roberts was a quality candidate...Judge Alito too...good legal scholars who are strict Constitutionalists

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I agree. I'm quite impressed with Roberts. I haven't heard enough about Alito yet to form an opinion yet, but so far so good...

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I meant Harriet Miers.....


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/1012055miers1.html



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Frankly, I wouldn't care if Miers and Bush were buds if she were qualified for the job.

P.S.
He has some bad handwriting, doesn't he?

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Thats BROWN NOSE buds!!! YICK!!!!!! gag me with a spoon, like totally!!!

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"And like Web, I enjoy throwing JR under the bus.  Problem is, it's usually under the special bus that I ride every day". Ghostdancer 12-18-09
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