Just because - Freeze-Frame Radio

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

RE: Just because

disco strangler · Smiles everyone, smiles!

I'm guessing he'll say none... seeing how we have undocumented families who come to this country just for healthcare because they know they won't be turned away...

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

If the sickness won't kill you, the medical bills will.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

I was hoping for something other than just more rhetoric.

*sigh*

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

well ok.

lets see-
supports the wars.
likes guns.
does not like the idea that no one should die because they can't afford health care, or go broke to afford that health care.

What church are you you're playing bass at again?? confuse

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Are those statements for me?

Once again, rather than deal with the issue at hand, you try to point the finger at someone else and say "Oh yeah, what about you?" Redirection seems to be the typical response with Democrats on these issues. We ask direct questions and we get name calling and finger pointing for answers. Why is everyone so afraid of answering simple questions? Rather than flippant comments, why can't we look at facts and truths?

Ok fine, if national health care is all about me now . . . First, I am not perfect. I don't claim to be. I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else, I'm just asking for some responsibility from our leadership and asking them to make sensible use of my money. Is that so out of line?

Next, I ask you where I have ever said that I support the wars? I wish we didn't have to have war. Reality teaches us that we can't always have things like we wish they were. Sometimes we have to react to the way it is. Do you remember 9-11? We were attacked? Do you like the freedom you have? Sometimes when pressed we will have to fight to keep that freedom. Not how I would prefer it, but reality bites. Again, where have I ever said that I support the wars? Supporting and understanding are not the same thing.

What exactly is wrong with guns? Yes, some evil people use guns to kill. How is that any different than using any other tool like a fist, a hammer, a knife, a car, etc? Shooting is just as much a sport as golf or any other sport.

I did not say that I'm against the idea that no one should die because they can't afford health care. I asked "how many people actually do die because they can't afford health care?" You implied that this is a common problem. I feel that asking how common it is, is an honest question. Once again, when asking an honest question, its somehow turned into "you want people to die". That is an absurd reply and yet another redirection attempt and avoidance of the issue at hand. So, I ask again, how many people are actually dying in this country because they can't afford health insurance?

My church is the Evangelical Free Church in Broken Bow, Nebraska. We are "Evangelical" because we believe it is our job to spread the gospel. We are "Free" because we do not have to answer to any overruling denomination in our day to day activities. I believe freedom is a good thing. You're welcome to visit any time. Our pastor just may even make you think a little.

I also ask you where I have said that I am dead set against national health care? I haven't. What I would like is an explanation of what exactly national health care will look like. What is it going to cost? Where is the money going to come from? Is this something that we can sustain for generations to come? When we ask those questions, we are told we're stupid and we just want people who can't afford insurance to suffer. Why is it so hard to get answers?

Why does it have to be kept such a big secret? Even Democrat leaders have said "I didn't even read the bill, its just too complicated to understand". When we ask the president how this will be funded, he says "we will figure that out later". Huh? Is that a responsible, intelligent way to go about this? Can any of us afford to work this way? When you and I have a problem, do we just write a huge check planning to figure how to pay for it after the check bounces? If we can't afford to work that way individually, how can we operate that way as a nation? How does that make any sense? Are we not the nation? Wouldn't it make more sense to make sure that we can actually make it work and work well before we start throwing money at it? Is that too much to ask?

If you want to redirect this to the personal level, then I also ask you where rights to life for the unborn come in to play in this system? If this is all out of such deep love and care for every life, and every life deserves the right to live no matter of status, are we going to protect babies in this right to health system?

If its fair to say that I'm all for letting people who can't afford health care die, then its also fair to say that anyone who is "pro choice" wants nothing more than to kill babies.

So, whats it going to be, discussion of the issues and dealing with realistic facts, or just more name calling, rhetoric, and redirection attempts?

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

I will simply return to my original statement. I KNOW its idealistic. But how can this be argued against???:

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.

This happens. Lets fix it. We have the right to life, (& liberty & the pursuit of happiness...)

And I agree this includes unborn babies too....

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Ok, lets fix it. I agree that it needs to be fixed. Health care costs are out of control. I agree with that.

BUT, you admit it is idealistic.

With all the money we are doing with stimulus, the economy, "green" earth, does it make sense to throw so this much more money at an idealistic issue?

Please answer me this one question: DOES IT MAKE SENSE to rush and push through this huge, unproven, expensive health care plan for an idealistic solution? Is this sensible behavior in our current (or any) economy? Is this how intelligent people solve problems? Wouldn't it make more sense to slow down and take the time necessary to make sure we're doing all these things the right way the first time?

-- Edited by WebGuy on Thursday 3rd of September 2009 08:57:48 PM

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

Its been slowed down for at least 8 yrs now, being debated, bushed (er pushed I mean) to the background i.e. stalled.

There seems to be a lot of money around. Money for wars, and too, money to prop up dying industries for another month or two. Unfathomable amounts of money. All from our paychecks.

Lets take some of this money so that no one dies because they cannot affoard health care or go broke because they are sick.

Affoarding health care for the majority of Americans is is largely dependent upon employer participation in health care insurance programs. In this economy, that is getting squeezed out. Anyone is lucky to have any job at all at this point. Should employment be a determining factor in who gets health care treatment and who doesn't? Should the economy or business determine my ability to alleviate pain and suffering for ourselves and those we love?

I have a friend who is unemployed and has chronic severe back pain due to a bad disk. She has no insurance, no job, no money, and can't afford to have this treated much less come up with the money for a routine doctor visit. She had to give up her house now. Its a brutal cycle- can't work due to bad back. can't afford to go to doctor because can't work.

Its inhuman. Its inhumane. Its not right.

We should have more say in how our tax money is spent. If someone wants their money to support war, the military, fine, good. They should be able to say thats where their money goes. If someone believes in helping the suffering through national healthcare, they should be able to direct their tax money there. I think this would brilliantly indicate where peoples hearts and interests truly are.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Hillary promised us national health care when Bill was elected. She didn't get it done in all those years her husband was president . . . but yet you still throw a Bush jab in there.

Like it nor not, and admit it or not, this administration is going to have to account for their own decisions some day. Obviously you are never going to admit that, but that doesn't change the truth.

But hey, at least I also got some kind of real reply from you, so I'll take what I can get.

Ok, so lets say we all ear mark our tax money.

What happens if we then don't have enough money to defend our country? What happens when we don't defend our borders? What happens when our population triples with immigrants who all want to come be taken care of for free? Do you honestly believe that kind of a financial system will last very long? Do you really think we can steal enough from the rich to sustain that kind of system into the future?

Do you think our workers can just give, give, and give more and it will never run out? How can you complain about this horrible economy as it is now, but yet at the same time honestly believe there is this magical abundance of extra money floating around?

We can fix health care, but we gotta cut the worthless crap to make room.

There is a huge valley of California farms burning up right now because the water to them has been turned off. The water has been turned off because some little fish that lives near the water supply has been put on the endangered species list. Farmers are going broke. The richest farmland in California is becoming worthless. THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of workers are losing jobs because this fish is being deemed more important than humans. Where is the outrage for that? We preach about unemployment, but yet we're knocking out thousands more jobs because of some little fish? Where is our priorities? Its really hard for me to take this administration seriously when they say one thing and do the opposite.

You want to help your friend? Tell your own leaders to cut the crap and focus on what is truly important right now, and those important things can be fixed. Until we all work together and do whats really important, we will just continue to spiral down deeper and deeper. Playing the blame game then doing the same thing x10 is ignorance.

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

WebGuy wrote:

Hillary promised us national health care when Bill was elected. She didn't get it done in all those years her husband was president . . . but yet you still throw a Bush jab in there.

Like it nor not, and admit it or not, this administration is going to have to account for their own decisions some day. Obviously you are never going to admit that, but that doesn't change the truth.

But hey, at least I also got some kind of real reply from you, so I'll take what I can get.

Ok, so lets say we all ear mark our tax money.

What happens if we then don't have enough money to defend our country? What happens when we don't defend our borders? What happens when our population triples with immigrants who all want to come be taken care of for free? Do you honestly believe that kind of a financial system will last very long? Do you really think we can steal enough from the rich to sustain that kind of system into the future?

Do you think our workers can just give, give, and give more and it will never run out? How can you complain about this horrible economy as it is now, but yet at the same time honestly believe there is this magical abundance of extra money floating around?

We can fix health care, but we gotta cut the worthless crap to make room.

There is a huge valley of California farms burning up right now because the water to them has been turned off. The water has been turned off because some little fish that lives near the water supply has been put on the endangered species list. Farmers are going broke. The richest farmland in California is becoming worthless. THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of workers are losing jobs because this fish is being deemed more important than humans. Where is the outrage for that? We preach about unemployment, but yet we're knocking out thousands more jobs because of some little fish? Where is our priorities? Its really hard for me to take this administration seriously when they say one thing and do the opposite.

You want to help your friend? Tell your own leaders to cut the crap and focus on what is truly important right now, and those important things can be fixed. Until we all work together and do whats really important, we will just continue to spiral down deeper and deeper. Playing the blame game then doing the same thing x10 is ignorance.

1. Hilary did try to get that passed. Quite an accomplishment for a First Lady. Nice to have a first lady wiith a viable and pertinent p.o.v. taken under consideration by the government and the people. Rare indeed.

2. The Bush administration is going to have to account for its descisions one day. You should be thankful that Obama is standing up and is even attempting to right the wrongs of the bush administration. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. All this is not of Obama's doing. It is of Bush's doing and his administration. Obama is trying to right the wrongs he inherited from Bush. When Bill Clinton left office, this nation had a surplus of nearly $600 billion dollars, we were not at war, and the economy was booming. That money was intended to save social security. I miss that. I mean, don't you miss that? That was good. Do you not think that was good?

3. If we don't have enough money to defend our country, then its our fault for not funding it. But I want that choice. Hey I was all for Ronald Reagan's Star Wars program- shoot the nukes from space before they land. that is perfect. why didn't that come to be? And do you think that sending troops into an obscure war fighting unidentifiable enemies hiding in broad daylight while having to rebuild their nations on our dime is a good idea too?

4. you make immigrants sound like leeches and not like human beings. WWJD?

5. Steal from the rich? Are you serious?

6. there was a magical abundance of money when bush determined that we must invade nations and topple governments to eradicate the invisible weapons of mass destruction and capture Osama Bin Laden.........................................................................why not take that magical waste of money and bring it back home so that the sick and poor won't suffer?

7. shall I go on? I will go on relentlessly. because I'm right.

8. California's fire is Swartzenagers(sic?) problem. They elected the movie star to be govenator. He's answerable to them, not me. Who's dumb enough to live on a fault-line anyways?.............................

9. I want to help my friend not be in pain anymore.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

1. What did Hilary accomplish, exactly? Did she get national health care? No, she failed. If we can blame Bush for not doing it, then we can blame Bill/Hilary for not doing it also. Maybe it didn't happen because its just not that easy (as Obama is finding out now as well).

2. I believe we all are going to have to account for our own decisions one day Bush, Obama, me, you, all of us. No, "this" is not all of Obama's doing, I've never said that it is. But all the the world's problems are not Bush's (or any one's) fault. Not everything can be fixed with tax and spend. Clinton had a surplus? Obama wants to multiply the deficit. Win Clinton, Fail Obama.

No, we were not at war when Clinton was in office. Do you remember 9/11? Let me refresh you . . . we were attacked by terrorists. Do you remember that day? Thousands died in an act of war that was not started by us. Are you honestly going to try to say 9/11 is Bush's fault too? Do I wish it was still a time of peace? Sure, does that change reality? Nope.

3. You want the choice to not defend our country? Wow. Ok, if we do that, then we should divide our nation into two parts, the defended and non-defended. You can go live in the non defended part . . . don't forget to write. Personally, I sleep better knowing that we have brave people willing to work to protect us from harm. If we didn't have that now, you would feel quite differently.

4. Is that really how I made it sound? Is that really what you took from my statement? Again, it is called reality . . . if we totally open our country up and say "Ok everyone come on in, we'll house you, we'll feed you, we'll take care of your every need", we will get exactly that. Its called simple math. We can't just keep taking more and more from each worker. Eventually, the money will run out and workers will give up. Its simple math. Its reality.

In my business, I host web sites for a lot of Christian organizations. I charge them for the service I provide. I wish I could give my services away to anyone who has a true need for it, and I could do that . . . for about three months. Then I would run out of money. Once that happened, my servers would be disconnected at the data center because I couldn't pay my bill. Yes, that would help those users have free services for three months, but once the money ran out, they would then have no service.

There are limits to what can be done. It baffles my mind that you can't see that.

As far as WWJD? That is a moot discussion with you. You mock Jesus. You mock Christianity. We just as well ask what would the Easter Bunny do, as that might have just as much significance to you. Jesus would say that we should trust and worship God, not Obama. Shall we start there first?

5. Yes, I am serious. As Obama himself called it "redistribution of wealth". That is just a nice way of saying "take from those who have and give to those who have not". How is taking everything that someone worked all their life for and giving it to someone else NOT stealing?

6. No, there was no magical abundance of money. We were already spending more than we make. After we went to war, we began spending even more than we make. We were already under debt and deficit and then the debt and deficit grew. Again I ask you, how is making that 10x worse now suddenly a good thing? The money spent on war is a drop in the bucket to what this administration is wanting to spend. So you're going to continue to point your finger at the little bit and ignore the HUGE amount?

7. You can if you want, but as you admitted, you go on about idealistic things. Sure, we all wish it was all bunnies and roses, but its not. Its called reality. Like it or not, its where we have to live. We can wish for all these things to happen, but they have to be paid for eventually. The reality of the math shows us that it can't happen without terrible financial impact on generation and generation to come. No one in the administration will try to explain to us how they plan to avoid that problem, or solve it after the fact. "We will deal with that later" is not a responsible answer. What we do today will impact our future. Its called being practical, and wishing and wanting that to be different is fine to do, but it doesn't change the facts and the math and the reality.

8. If you read my comment about California again, you will see that it had nothing to do with the fires. The government has stopped the flow of IRRIGATION water to farmers because of a little fish. In a time with unemployment rising, the government has decided to put thousands more out of work because of a little fish. By its actions, the government says that these little fish are more important than the thousands of humans that rely on that water.

9. Then help her. Why don't you pay her doctor visits for her? You can just use some of that abundance of money floating around that you have . . . or is it just that everyone but you has that abundance?

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

I'd love to read all that, and at some point I might, just real busy at work. I like getting preached at.

So let me for now focus on the most important point to me-

I'd love to help my friend. Unfortunately I myself can't afford to. Its hard enough to afford my own health insurance. Its a down economy (that Obama inherited by the way), and insurance premiums, no matter what, keep going up each year.

So I want YOU, WEB and YOUR TAXES to pay for helping her instead. OK?

Wait, MORE taxes? Thats bad. bad.

So, instead, how about throwing our health insurance premiums into a big pot to be used on an as needed basis then?

I spend $100s of dollars a month for coverage IN CASE something happens. Fortunately I am healthy and nothing bad has.

What happens to that money then if I don't use it. Continued profit for health insurance companies?

How about through that money in a big pot instead of just being thrown away like that.

My friend could be helped then.

That sounds pretty Christian to me...

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I feel like I'm jumping into the middle of a car crash here, but I'm not very good at keeping my mouth shut.

It's getting messy in here, but guys, can we put the gloves back on and stop hitting below the belt?

It's common courtesy to keep from personal attacks during political discussions, and at least read the other person's points.

Now I'm running out of here before I get hit by whatever is coming off of that fan...

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

good point. I'm done. smile

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Ok, I am about to let this rest now.

We were actually getting some thoughts there for a little bit, but now we're back to where asking real questions is only resulting in avoidance and insults for answers (the "preaching" comment). Asking for an explanation is not preaching.

I've been trying to leave Christianity out of it because I know you want total separation of church and state. Do you really want this country ran in a Christian way?

Your health insurance idea sounds like a good idea . . . but I will ask you one more two part question:

Part 1: What has the government ever ran more efficiently than private enterprise?

Part 2: If you can't think of anything for #1, how will health care be any different?

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Ok, that is fine with me too. I was just hoping for some real discussion this time.

Its nothing personal with me.

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

ya any perceived insult please take with only a bit of disbelief

and more of a wink

.
this is fun. riggs and I have spent years screaming at each other. its fun.

murscclub · Chairman Of The Board

Ok Web, since you couldn;t agree with JD to just let it rest, I can;t stay out of this any longer. I would love to debate you point-for-point, but I don;t have the time today, so I'll just jump in with a few thoughts here.

Your answer to #1 is Medicare. Kennedy and Johnson faced stiff opposition to it when they created it, but it seems to have worked out fairly well. No, not perfectly, but it does it's job. If you want government out of healthcare, then tell them to drop all the seniors on Medicare as well. You can;t have it both ways. Anyway, I'm sure the private insurers would love to get their hands on all that extra money and start denying seniors the care they would've gotten under Medicare.

45 million people in this country have no health insurance. 45 million! You may say that none of them deserve it because they don;t work, etc, and probably in some cases that's true, but I would argue that in the majority of cases it's not. In addition, millions of others have insurance but can barely afford it. I have decent insurance, and a fairly healthy family, but I still pay THOUSANDS a year in healthcare costs. And the numbers show that in the next ten years that number will become tens of thousands unless we do something about it now. Also, of all industrialized countries in the world, we pay the most for our healthcare, yet our life expectancy is among the lowest. How is that acceptable?

Really, it comes down to this: If you're ok with millions of people not having health insurance, and millions of others barely being able to afford it, then by all means support the current system.

If you are not ok with that, then you have to agree we need change. So maybe you don;t like Obama's plan - then come up with one of your own, or at least tell the congressmen you support to come up with one. Obama tried to let all sides shape the debate. He proposed a framework of a policy, but left it up to Congress to craft the details, so that all sides would get their input. Obviously that didn;t work, in part because of all the special interests that are pouring hundreds of millions into an effort to derail any change and keep the status quo so they can keep lining their pockets with our money.

Obviously government doesn;t function very well for us these days, but there are areas that it does a better job than the private sector could. Or at the very least, is a very improtant and successful part of a public/private partnership, which is what Obama is essentially proposing anyway.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

Can we move this into it's own thread? Murs, would you mind if you copy-pasted and started a new thread?

murscclub · Chairman Of The Board

Great, I didn;t see the last two posts before mine when I submitted mine, so I didn';t know you BOTH had agreed to let it rest. Ah well, I never did have very good timing!

No need for a new post imho. I just got handed some more work for this afternoon and wouldn;t be able to give the debate it's just attention. hmm

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

Just one woman's thought but: How much easier do you think it might be to figure a way to reform the current healthcare system if the Congress was not in the pocket of the insurance and healthcare industries? This is an across the board problem, not just a Republican problem. Go check out who are the prime recipients of campaign funding from these groups... I think you might be surprised to see how many Democrats there are getting big, fat checks.

The reason the Hillary led health care reform failed miserably is because of the fact that no one in Congress truly wishes to bite the hand that feeds them AND because it was led by Hillary "We are the President" Clinton. No one in this country could stand her back then because no one wanted to publicly acknowledge that the First Lady might have a hand in running the show... never mind the fact that the first female president was probably Eleanor Roosevelt. We have had several female Presidents... just not officially.

As for the gun commentary, the first ammendment to the Constitution guarantees us the rights to freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of assembly. I think we all agree that these are good things. If they were not, do you honestly believe that you would be allowed to criticize ANY President, be that Bush or Obama? The second ammendment guarantees us the right to keep and bear arms. Do you suppose that was a coincidence? I think not. I think our forefathers had the foresight to know that what is important needs to be protected. It is a shame that we the people have used guns to needlessly murder and have even made the anti-gun argument necessary, obviously our forefathers hoped humanity would be better than that but they did account for the possiblity that we are not better than that. That is why they guaranteed us the right to keep and bear arms... so we can continue to defend ourselves against those who would oppress our other rights.

murscclub · Chairman Of The Board

Mad Mema wrote:

Just one woman's thought but: How much easier do you think it might be to figure a way to reform the current healthcare system if the Congress was not in the pocket of the insurance and healthcare industries? This is an across the board problem, not just a Republican problem. Go check out who are the prime recipients of campaign funding from these groups... I think you might be surprised to see how many Democrats there are getting big, fat checks.

You are correct there. When I said that Congress failed to craft a plan, I meant both sides of the aisle.

Ok, I MUST get back to work now! cry

Ruby · The Good Witch Of The South

Ruby · The Good Witch Of The South

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

Very tiny Basement Kitteh!

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

This one made Ghost think of Mema's basement kitty:

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Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

Looks just like her! Speaking of which, Basement Cat is right here with Mema. She is demanding to be petted and is probably attempting again to snatch Mema's soul.

confuzzed · Permanent State of Confusion

Fuzzy thought she already took Mema's soul. Maybe that was Mema's heart...