The Math of The American Dream Isn't Working Out - Freeze-Frame Radio

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

RE: The Math of The American Dream Isn't Working Out

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Jeremy Riggs wrote:

I can't believe you don't think we're #1 anymore. All things considered, the biggest being personal liberties, that statement just shocks me.

JR, I don't think we're #1 anymore either. Sure, we still have our personal liberties, but some of those are slowly being siphoned away from us (thinking of things that sneek through under Homeland Security). Economically, we're in a mess; our dollar is worth less and less on the foreign markets almost every day. Granted, we still have a higher standard of living than a lot of other countries, but for how much longer??

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

MzHartz wrote:

Ghost, they have to pay things like book rental, classroom fees, lab fees, etc.

Holy cow Mz, the school district must have really slashed it's budget! Book rental?? Is that for classroom textbooks?

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

Europe is number one. look at the value of the Euro, and I'm pretty sure they get their summers off.... smile

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

ghostdancer wrote:

MzHartz wrote:

Ghost, they have to pay things like book rental, classroom fees, lab fees, etc.

Holy cow Mz, the school district must have really slashed it's budget! Book rental?? Is that for classroom textbooks?

Yes, the book rental is for classroom textbooks. But these costs aren't new, they were there when I went to school. Hm, I wonder if it's a state thing.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

MzHartz wrote:
Yes, the book rental is for classroom textbooks. But these costs aren't new, they were there when I went to school. Hm, I wonder if it's a state thing.

Might be; I know here in Saginaw we don't have to rent textbooks, but most classes only have one set of books for the classroom to use, which makes it a bugger when there is homework assigned and the kids need the dang book to do it yet they can't bring home the book because there isn't enough books for everyone.

I do know there are school districts here in MI that are charging kids for extra curricular activities such as paying to play football and basketball due to budget cuts. The main gripe I have with that is you have kids paying just to be on the team, but only the best players get to play.....the not so good players sit on the bench, never get in a game, yet they're still paying to be on the team. I feel if you have to pay to play, you should get to play at least once during the sport season!!

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

ghostdancer wrote:

MzHartz wrote:
Yes, the book rental is for classroom textbooks. But these costs aren't new, they were there when I went to school. Hm, I wonder if it's a state thing.

Might be; I know here in Saginaw we don't have to rent textbooks, but most classes only have one set of books for the classroom to use, which makes it a bugger when there is homework assigned and the kids need the dang book to do it yet they can't bring home the book because there isn't enough books for everyone.

I do know there are school districts here in MI that are charging kids for extra curricular activities such as paying to play football and basketball due to budget cuts. The main gripe I have with that is you have kids paying just to be on the team, but only the best players get to play.....the not so good players sit on the bench, never get in a game, yet they're still paying to be on the team. I feel if you have to pay to play, you should get to play at least once during the sport season!!

Each student here gets their own book for the whole schoolyear. Really, as a student, I probably would have preferred not to have to lug the books back and forth to school. I went through 4 backpacks in one year once; they all ripped because I had to carry too much in them.

But as far as I know, no one had to pay to be in any extracurricular activities. But players had to pay for their own uniforms, choir members had to pay for their robes, etc. And I definately did not go to a poor high school, which I think was part of the problem. Our school covered a few cities, including all of one of the richest in the area and all of one of the poorest (I lived in the poor one). So everything seemed to be done to cater to the rich kids, and my family wasn't poor enough to qualify for assistance anymore. So for example, in calculus, everyone else had $100 graphing calculators, while I had to do my math by hand. That was the only math class I had trouble in. (I got a C+ in it, but I was an A student.)

Tennessee Gal · Chairwoman Of The Board

OK- I've got to put my two cents in here, since when did Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness include getting our summers off?

I recently read that France, part of Europe has almost a 40% unemployment rate in the Muslim population. I don't know of a single European nation that has a lower employment or tax rate rate than ours. They're also paying about $6/gallon for gas right now.

How many European nations take care of the rest of the world's impoverished like we do, nor... do any except England come to their allies assistance when needed. If the US had such a selfish "take care of ourselves first" mentality, maybe our national debt wouldn't be in the trillions right now.

You all mention the high cost of medical care, you might want to compare your future increase in taxes when comparing socialized medicine versus what it is now. Why do you think the govt. would do any better job taking care of our medical needs when they've shown HORRIBLE oversight in our social security.

Lastly, how many of you have it worse than your parents at the same time in life. My parents started out their marriage in a 12x20 trailer. I remember my mother splitting a Jenos pizza four ways for the family and supplementing the meal with vegetables she had canned from their extensive garden. Eating out was a luxury we seldom experienced.

I put a lot of blame on Unions for bankrupting the American Dream. GM and Ford will never be able to sustain what they were forced into agreeing to by the Unions. Thanks to the unions we ALL think we deserve $50k/year with double time for anything over 40 hours. We want our healthcare 100% provided, and we want those benefits starting at the age of 50.

Sorry... but our think our ancestors would be shocked to see what lazy, whining babies we have all become. No wonder our obesity rate is now 1 in 4. Nobody does manual labor anymore.

I don't consider myself poor because I can't afford to drink anything but water at a restaurant. I don't consider myself poor because I can't afford a membership to the Y. I don't consider myself poor because I shop at yard sales and Goodwill. I don't consider myself poor because I can't afford to buy CDs, DVDs, movie tickets, concert tickets, or my beloved Titans tickets. I consider myself wealthy because I can afford to give to my church, save towards my retirement, and send my girls to a Christian school to learn the values of God First, others second, and ourselves last.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I never said life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness included getting our summers off. I don't think we should get summers off.

I never said I think we need to have socialized medical care. But the cost of medical care, what I think can be called a basic necessity, needs to be addressed. If I'm forced to point fingers at a cause for the high medical costs, I'd point it at the insurance companies and lawyers.

Personally, I'm proud of where I am at personally in life. But I DO think our country is in sad shape. I don't care whether or not I'm poor. I care about the future welfare of my sister and nieces and nephews. I do as much as I can, but I'm afraid it's not enough.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I'm not sorry that I want the next generation to have it as good as we do (did). I don't think our ancestors would be ashamed of us. I think they would be proud of what we've accomplished. What is so wrong about making a better way of life for ourselves?

I agree, we do have to work to get what we want, and that it's not acceptable to sit back and expect it to be handed to you. But the balance is skewed. The people who work the hardest get paid the least. We hand benefits to people who don't work at all.

Really we need a rework of the entire system, we've lost sight of our goals and the big picture.

Tennessee Gal · Chairwoman Of The Board

I'm sorry MzHartz, I wasn't responding to just your post in my rant of many topics. JD had mentioned getting summers off.

I agree attorneys and insurance companies are to blame in the rise in medical costs. I would also add pharmaceutical companies to that list.

I also agree our country is headed in a bad direction. All great civilizations have ended, typically from within, and... I too am afraid we are headed in that direction. I don't blame my government as much as I do our citizens' self destructive ways and emphasis on self. Thanks to the ACLU, we are no longer a God fearing nation and it shows.

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

I was joking about the summers off. well except for france.... hmm

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I agree TN, we might as well be the New Rome.

This is a hard topic for me to talk about without ruffling feathers, but I don't think religion or the lack thereof is the problem with our country (although I'd love to see more tolerance). I've seen way too many people who claim they have faith treat other people in ways that they wouldn't want to be treated.

I do think we need better leaders who lead by example. And I'm talking about a lot more than just politicians. It's anyone who acts like a leader, managers, teachers, parents.

I've had this dream of working with teenagers for a long time now, and have never been really able to act on it. I think more attention needs paid to the next generation to show them the difference between right and wrong.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

It's an issue that will never be resolved really.

If I were a younger man maybe I could be idealistic still and think somehow, someway, we'll turn it all around.

But the sampling of this forum is a good example of how a group of people can't come together to mend this country because they all believe so firmly in positions that just don't line up.

What made us a great country was our differences and our democratic way of dealing with them. In the long run it may well be our downfall too. But this IS the greatest country in the world, and I will live and die proud of the way our country was founded and was run. Perfect? Not even close. But in the end I believe we'll be the ones that came the closest to getting it right.

That's it. I've said all I'll say.

No one here is going to change their mind, no one here is going to soften their opinions. We believe what we believe and that's fine. That's better than fine, that's America. I'm proud of it.

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

I will say that we all get reamed with taxes, and we deserve better than we are getting for them.

Maybe we should be able to indicate what percent of our hard earned taxes goes towards what cause. Its my money, and I want it to go towards 50 % saving social security, 25% national defence and 25% educational funding. Without these this nation is screwed.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

You and I have always seen eye to eye on that JD.

There has to be some forced minimums of course (because we MUST fund the military to at least a minimal level among other things) but I would like to be able to decide where my money is used.

I'd also really, REALLY like to see some kind of system in place to truly control pork spending. We could limit how much we allowed to go to one area of the government, but that doesn't stop them from wasting half of what we allocated.

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

thats just it. There was a story a few years back where some FED pork was discovered to fund the Dale Evans memorial museum???? cmon.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

MzHartz wrote:

I do think we need better leaders who lead by example. And I'm talking about a lot more than just politicians. It's anyone who acts like a leader, managers, teachers, parents.

I've had this dream of working with teenagers for a long time now, and have never been really able to act on it. I think more attention needs paid to the next generation to show them the difference between right and wrong.

I totally agree with you on this point Mz. We have a whole generation of kids that can not distinguish between right and wrong. They have no respect for anything or anyone, including themselves. The problem is, who is going to teach the next generation? Many parents of this particular generation haven't done so, so how are these kids going to raise their own children; many teachers have given up due to lack of support of those kids' parents and no support from school administrators; the churches are losing members rapidly for a variety of reasons; many of our city, state, and federal leaders lie, cheat, steal, etc.,........they are not the role models I'd want my girls to look up to.

The main reason for kids joining gangs is because once they are in a gang, it gives them the sense of belonging to a family. As gang members go, they look out for each other, take care of each other, do things together. These are the type of things their own family should be doing for them, yet their families are failing them.

It's a complicated issue all the way around. I believe it can be fixed, but who is going to step up to the plate to do it?

JD The Jazz Doctor · Grand Poobah

Darwin will help. wink

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

ghostdancer wrote:

We have a whole generation of kids that can not distinguish between right and wrong. They have no respect for anything or anyone, including themselves. The problem is, who is going to teach the next generation?

(Ghost, this has nothing to do with you directly, I'm just continuing with the idea.)

I agree that this is the problem, and most everyone else will agree with it, even the kids that can't distinguish between right and wrong will admit that its the problem.

Ok, so let's do step up and fix it.

Let's teach what is right and what is wrong.

So, to get started, I suppose we should first decide amongst ourselves what is right and what is wrong, and what we're going to teach our kids, huh?

Well, lets see . . . lets start with marriage and family values. Let's say that a "family" is one man and one woman bonded in legal marriage. Does that sound like something that should be "right"?

Oh, wait, that small group over there in the corner says they have a problem with the "one man and one woman" part because this "right" would infringe on their "rights" to be considered as a "family" too.

So, that won't work. We don't want our definition of whats "right" to leave anyone out. We better change that definition of marriage to: "One man or one woman legally bonded to another man, or another woman, or a group of people, or any physical thing which he, she, or they may whatsoever desire to be bonded with".

There, does that cover all of you over there? Yes? Good because we sure don't want to set something as "right" that you don't agree with. We don't want to set something as "right" if it may cause you to feel oppressed, or discriminated against. We certainly don't want to push our old, outdated ideas on you if you don't agree.

So, I guess on this one, we are going to teach our children that "family" is whatever you think it is that you desire because only you know what could possibly be best for you or your "family".

There, one's done.

Alright, number two . . .

confuzzed · Permanent State of Confusion

Okay. I know I am not usually really into such serious discussions, as I don't like to upset or tick anyone off. After reading everything, I understand all views offered. It takes some thinking time and usually I am too lazy for that. But I guess my question becomes, if we can't distinguish between right and wrong, does it become a "it is all about what is going on in my world thing?" And is the next best thing to make our own decisions and do the best we can to improve ourselves, our family and our children? To teach each other to treat other people the way you want to be treated, that everyone is the same regardless of race or religion (or lack thereof), that each person is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs, to work hard, to know life isn't easy and it wasn't intended to be that way, that (in most cases) nothing is handed to us, to live and love life. And hope that we have done well enough that is able to be passed from generation to generation?

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Fuzzy, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm always happy when others join in discussions of this type and share their thoughts/feelings/opinions/beliefs with me. smile

confuzzed · Permanent State of Confusion

I like to usually just read and see different opinions that are out there. I can honestly say that I have done one of those, "I never thought about it that way before" things. I think it is nice that we are about to share with one another like this.

I also realize that there will never be a "right" way of doing things. That is where our freedom comes from. I'll do it my way, you do it your way and hopefully we will meet again someday.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

Web, I don't think that's fair. You're taking a controversial issue out of context. We are more open and tolerant than before, and with that brings more issues. I'm not saying which is right or wrong in that particular issue, because it's an issue we could beat into the bushes and everyone here still wouldn't agree on.

But, we can teach our children to make wise decisions to determine what's right and wrong. We can teach them to have a conscience. To treat people the way they want to be treated (and all the other stuff Fuzzy said). To be productive members of society. To think about how the things they do affect other people. We can teach them to be responsible.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

I think we can all say that we believe everyone on this forum is a good, decent person. The type of people we'd be happy to have as a neighbor.

Having said that, I'm glad to see we're having this discussion instead of everyone getting upset or hurt and running off into a corner. Or worse yet, attacking one another.

Music and movies and lighthearted conversation is great, and I enjoy the forum banter immensely. But for me, I also enjoy a little substance now and then. And personally there is only one issue that I absolutely refuse to debate publicly because it CAN change how I view a person. Anything else is just a discussion among friends to me.

I agree strongly with some of your comments, I disagree strongly with some of your comments. Many of the comments make me shake my head and think "how can they possible see things that way". But in the end I still think of each and every one of you as good people. Of course, there are several of you that if ran for public office I'd have to pay homeless people to cast votes against you, but I imagine there's more than a few people who feel the same about me.

Just like a family, we've got a bunch of brothers and sisters here that are all quite unique, but ultimately, we're still a family (of sorts).

-- Edited by Jeremy Riggs at 15:18, 2008-07-18

confuzzed · Permanent State of Confusion

We are dysfunctional family alright.

Which, as everyone already knows, is perfectly normal.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

exactly.

When we all start seeing eye to eye on everything, that's when we need to worry

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Geez JR, nothing like stackin' the deck against me!! Paying homeless people to cast votes against me. Pretty low my feathery friend!! cry

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

I just see things as more black/white than that.

The intent of my post really had nothing to do with the definition of a family. The point I was trying to make is that no matter what, we will never be able to take a stand for whats "right" without offending someone.

I agree that we need to teach our children to make wise decisions in whats right and whats wrong, but don't they need some kind of measuring stick ultimately to determine that?

Edit: I got a phone call while typing that. That was mainly in response to Mz's last post.

-- Edited by WebGuy at 15:37, 2008-07-18

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

I would say that if you instilled your values/beliefs and what you think is right or wrong to your children, then that in itself would ultimately be the measuring stick your children will use when they are making their decisions/choices in life. Isn't that how we all learned what we consider to be right or wrong? smile