The Math of The American Dream Isn't Working Out - Freeze-Frame Radio

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

RE: The Math of The American Dream Isn't Working Out

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Ideally, yes . . . but if your measuring stick is more open than your parents, your kids will be more open. If they are more open than you were, their kids will be more open, etc. etc. It seems that each generation is more "anything goes" than the previous.

I'm just saying that if we keep going that way, and don't try to point back towards more concrete "right and wrong" (and be able to say something is wrong) its only going to get worse.

Edit: Agh - I'm too slow - this was response to GD.

-- Edited by WebGuy at 15:51, 2008-07-18

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:

Web, I think you're looking a little too big.

I guess I just believe that if you get the big core things straight, the little ones will take care of themselves.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I'm still stuck on teaching kids the decision making process. I don't think more open is bad.

I like that we're more open about racial equality. I like that I can have black friends, and we can go to restuarants together and sit at the table and eat together.

I like that we're more open about gender equality. I like being able to vote. I like being a professional businesswoman.

I hate (and yes, hate) my stepfather's closemindedness. In his view, white people are superior. He's got slang terms that he uses for any other type of person and he feels passionately about it.

Web, I suspect it's a specific subject that has given you those feelings that we're too open minded. And I think you have a right to those feelings, and that you can teach your son what you feel is wrong. The only way I would take it farther is for him to understand why you think it's wrong.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

WebGuy wrote:
MzHartz wrote:

Web, I think you're looking a little too big.

I guess I just believe that if you get the big core things straight, the little ones will take care of themselves.

I meant big as in controversial. Plus, I don't think teaching kids that a marriage is a man and woman will prevent them from becoming a jackass.

Bascially, I think we need to start with kids' behavior, because I'm guessing it's behavior that we've all been complaining about.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Mz, that comment was just as unfair as mine was.

Racial equality, gender equality, etc are not the kinds of things I'm talking about as even questioned for right and wrong. Racism and inequality are wrong. Period. I'm not a racist. I believe women deserve every thing afforded to men. I think you know that.

I do (and will as they become appropriate) teach my son why I think wrong things are wrong.

My point is, and it still stands that as long as every individual person is making their own decisions about what is right and wrong and not making those decisions against any kind of moral authority, we will continue in this (what I consider) moral decline.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

It sounds to me like MZ's Dad had a big impact on how she views things, which is what we're talking about here. Parents impact their kids lives, and as a result we want our parents to have a good grasp on what's right and wrong.

I imagine all of our differing views are heavily impacted by how we were raised and what kind of attitudes our parents had.

One thing that struck me when I was in high school (besides many of the seniors on the football team) was that there are two completely different kinds of kids.

I was type A. I listened to my parents and did what they said. I feared DISAPPOINTING them. They never hit me, so it wasn't a fear of THEM, it was a fear of disappointing them. I think that's a GREAT parenting tool if you can develop it.

Then there's type B. The kid who wants to be a pain in the butt and tick his parents off, maybe out of a desire for attention.

But I also found that I was the type of kid who wanted to take the good characteristics of my parents but not the bad. For example, I never smoked even one puff of a cigarette in my entire life. Both of my parents smoked two packs a day.

When I was in high school several times I had a lot of peer pressure to start smoking and refused. I recall one girl specifically trying to get me to have a cigarette and I refused. She asked if my parents smoked and I told her hey both smoked two packs a day. She was stunned that with my parents smoking that much I hadn't even tried one and refused to do so.

Other kids I'd talk to would tell me they started because they saw their parents do it, or their older sibling did, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that every kid is different, and while we have to do our best to teach them well ultimately they'll make their own choices and mistakes.

But our society in an effort to be open-minded and politically correct is moving more and more to this point of just being accepting of everything. I don't think that's the right road to take. It's not a religious moral issue. It's about what's best for the majority of the country.

We're starting to let the minority voice dictate too much. It's great that the minority (and I dont' mean skin color here) is being heard, and tolerance is a wonderful thing. But there still has to be standards of right and wrong and the majority must decide what those standards are.

When we start letting our kids think that anything is ok as long as they THINK they're being good people, then we're building a future majority that will further lower the bar on what is right an wrong. It's a scary cycle. This is what I was talking about with television, movies and music, how far we've gone in letting anything go in those mediums. But it's also about what society is teaching todays kids.

Yeesh. I confused myself on that comment. But it all makes sense in my head, I swear it does.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Woooo! Good debate

I think we're ready for Meet The Press!!!

Speaking of Meet the Press, can you imagine what amazing people James Carville and Mary Matlin must be?

I mean an uber-liberal husband and an uber-conservative that seem like a fantastic married couple. I bet their couch get's a LOT of use though

-- Edited by Jeremy Riggs at 16:57, 2008-07-18

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Ok, I had to read all of this while thinking about what I wanted to say.

I'm going to go with moral decisions and put myself out on a limb here.

I strongly believe in abortion; I believe a woman should have the choice whether she wants to terminate a pregnancy or not. Yes, it goes against everything I was taught at home and everything I was taught in church.

I strongly believe in gay rights, period. This too goes against everything I was taught at home and in church. I believe that a gay couple can raise a child together, and that child will either turn out to be straight or gay based solely on genes. I don't believe the lifestyle or environment they are raised in has any bearing on how they will identify their own sexuality.

I believe in allowing gay couples to marry. If they love each other, and are committed to each other, why not allow them to marry? Again, this goes against everything I was taught. I believe there is a very real fear in the heterosexual community that gay couples will somehow turn out gay children. I believe this to be a completely false fear.

I'm going to assume that these are the concrete right and wrongs Web was speaking of. I think these are the issues the forum will be divided over pertaining to what is right and wrong.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Oooof. I would LOVE to debate these issues with you some time Ghost. Because I respect you and think we'd both be capable of carrying on a very, VERY good debate without letting it get ugly.

Furthermore I believe you and I are both people that can listen to each other and leave open the possibility that our views could be slightly altered if the other made valid points.

But I will not discuss abortion. Not here. Not there. Not anywhere. I am against it. That's as far as I'll go. My feelings on it are so strong, it is the ONE area of debate that can and has cost me friends. So I leave it untouched. In my mind there is no debate to be had on it. And not because I'm a Catholic, but because in the deepest core of my soul I believe it to be flat out murder.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

JR, I'm sure we could have a very civilized debate, and probably learn some things from each other in the process without alienating each other. I've said before that I'd love to sit down with you and have these type of discussions. I too respect you and your views.

And it's ok about the abortion issue. You feel as you feel about it and I'm completely ok with not touching on that subject with you. smile

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

See! Look how civil.

You know, until I was about 29 I was actually pro-choice. So it's not like I don't understand the other sides arguments on it. I just eventually formed my opinion and it's as rock solid as any opinion I've got. The one area that the cement has hardened so to speak

It's funny Sandy, more than anyone else on this forum I've always felt a connection to you despite the fact we've got such very different views. By connection I just mean I get the feeling a debate between us would be very enlightening, at least to me.

Typically I sense in other people that they are arguing their point from more of a defensive stance, but I don't get that from you at all. We'll have to have that debate some time

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Why thank you for such a very nice compliment JR!! Most people run from me, haha.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

I learned to stop running a long time ago Sandy. I was never fast enough to get away anyway, so when I was caught I was just out of breath and unable to fight.

I figure it's better to just go right to the fighting part, so I still got some energy in me

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Its much deeper and broader than those "concrete" things for me, Ghost.

Just an an example:

Lets say we have 14 year old Johnny. One of the things we want him to learn is that women are just as worthy as men. Women deserve all the rights that men have. Women are to be respected and loved for the incredible beings they are. Can we all agree that is a "right" thing?

So, why do we as a society we tell Johnny that women are not to be objectified, but yet we shove porn at him from every direction on the web, tv, magazines, billboards etc.?

If I say "porn is wrong", I'm a closed minded fool. But if I say "women are not to be objectified", I'm cool.

I see all this stuff as being related and one thing feeding off another.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

WebGuy wrote:

Mz, that comment was just as unfair as mine was.

Racial equality, gender equality, etc are not the kinds of things I'm talking about as even questioned for right and wrong. Racism and inequality are wrong. Period. I'm not a racist. I believe women deserve every thing afforded to men. I think you know that.

I do (and will as they become appropriate) teach my son why I think wrong things are wrong.

My point is, and it still stands that as long as every individual person is making their own decisions about what is right and wrong and not making those decisions against any kind of moral authority, we will continue in this (what I consider) moral decline.

I didn't mean it to be unfair. But I was trying to think of ways we have opened our minds, and while we are debating the gay rights issue, I couldn't think of any other way that having an open mind would be a bad thing.

I agree, porn is bad, it objectifies women, and is not true sex or true love. It doesn't instill values. I agree that it should be regulated, and is supposed to be. But, as long as the scene is of something legal (no rape, no animals, etc.), I don't believe it should be outlawed entirely.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

WebGuy wrote:

Its much deeper and broader than those "concrete" things for me, Ghost.

Just an an example:

Lets say we have 14 year old Johnny. One of the things we want him to learn is that women are just as worthy as men. Women deserve all the rights that men have. Women are to be respected and loved for the incredible beings they are. Can we all agree that is a "right" thing?

So, why do we as a society we tell Johnny that women are not to be objectified, but yet we shove porn at him from every direction on the web, tv, magazines, billboards etc.?

If I say "porn is wrong", I'm a closed minded fool. But if I say "women are not to be objectified", I'm cool.

I see all this stuff as being related and one thing feeding off another.

First of all, I hope you know me well enough to know that I would never call you a closed minded fool for expressing any of your views Web; and yes, I know you're using it as just a "thinking out loud" kinda thing, an expression. smile

As far as porn being shoved on 14 yr old Johnny from every direction, this is a pet peeve of mine. Advertisers have used some form of sex for years to try to sell their products; you can't watch tv, read a magazine, or pass a billboard without seeing it, no matter how cleverly they try to disguise it. I strongly feel the media objectifies women every chance they get, and it sends out a lot of wrong signals to impressionable young boys and girls, and even some adults.

As for porn itself, adults have the choice if they want to view it or have it in their home. I've seen some really disgusting porn, but I've also seen some that's done in good taste.....Playboy magazine is a leader in what I consider good taste to be on this subject. I'm not against porn being available to adults, providing it doesn't involve children, animals, snuff films, or anything else that is illegal.

Some form or another of porn has been around for many, many years, if not centuries. I'm sure if you could go back in time and talk to your great, great grandfather he would probably have been aware of some type of porn back then; to us nowdays, it might not appear as porn, but I'm sure they would have thought of it as such.

And in my mind, you can't talk about porn without talking about sex because that's what porn is. Has the issue of sex contributed to the de-moralization of our country and it's citizens? I'd say yes and no. The way the media portrays it, yes, most times it has contributed to a decline in morals.....they use it to help sell a product of some type or another, whether it be a movie, clothes, perfume, make-up, a car, toothpaste, etc., etc., and they use it to make an impression, to get you to buy their particular product. To me, that's degrading to both males and females.

But if we're able to bring sex out of the closet and talk about it without thinking it's somehow dirty or wrong to discuss the issue, then no, I don't believe this demoralizes anyone in any way. I'm sure we've all been taught that sex isn't something you discuss outside of your own home, but why is that? I think by keeping this subject locked up within ourselves it somehow contributes to the thoughts that it's wrong, it's dirty, it's nasty and we shouldn't talk about it except with our own partner and children. And no, I don't mean talking about all the little details.....I mean more in the sense that it's a part of life, it's a natural thing, it's a beautiful thing. We all crack jokes about it, but how often do we sit down and have a meaningful discussion about it with our closest friends or other people we feel comfortable with? I would be willing to bet most of us seldom do, and again, I think it's because we've been taught and conditioned that it's something you just don't talk about.

This type of thinking, in my opinion, has helped fuel the decline in morals, especially in the younger generation. A lot of people don't have frank, open, age appropriate discussions about sex with their children because they feel by talking about it with them, their kids are going to go out and become sexually active. What they fail to realize is that their kids are more apt to become sexually active at an early age if they DON'T talk about sex with their kids. How can a teen know that just because their body is ready for sex, their emotional well-being may not be ready to handle it if no one talks to them about it? How can a sexually active teen protect himself/herself against sexually transmitted diseases if they don't know how to go about doing so? How can sexually active teens protect themselves against an unwanted pregnancy if they don't know the options that are available? How can an 11 or 12 year old girl go to her parents and tell them she is pregnant, and the parents are shocked to hear it because mom or dad hasn't even had the "birds & bees" talk with her yet? How can a teen choose abstinence if he/she doesn't even know what the word means because no one has explained it to him/her yet? These are the type of things that just boggle my mind as a parent. cry

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

Ghost, it sounds like we have similar views on these types of things.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Regarding porn itself, yes, its always been here. In some form, its probably been around as long as man has.

I think the difference now is that you used to have to go look for it. Now its pushed on us. There used to be some "shame" in porn, now its the norm. Call it "soft porn" or whatever, but you can't live in society today without it being put in your face. You don't have a choice. Maybe the technology we have now has facilitated that push, but its a fact. Its obvious that it would be impossible to regulate it.

Is it just a coincidence that sexual activity in young kids has increased right along with the amount of sex and porn that is pushed on them? I don't think so.

Yes, I agree with you 100% that it is our job to teach our kids about sex and its purpose in our lives. But we teach them one thing, and then show them something else. Which is going to have the biggest impact? Which is having the biggest impact? Your best teaching comes from being an exampl, and its not just parents. If we want our kids to have a better society, we need to SHOW them what a better society looks like, not just tell them. Again, it doesn't just come from parents because kids need consistency to learn. When you throw mixed signals at kids, you force them to decide for themselves who they are going to follow. Why do we put them in that position?

What good does porn provide us as a society? I'll quote Mz "porn is bad, it objectifies women, and is not true sex or true love. It doesn't instill values." I agree with what she said and I'll add that it breaks up marriages. It breaks up families. Its addictive. It makes people act out in ways that they normally wouldn't act.

Then I have to ask what "good" does it do for us as a society. Yes, some people enjoy it and some people can keep it from taking over their lives better than others. But, we could say the same thing about cocaine yet cocaine use is still generally considered "wrong" by society even though it does many of the very same things to peoples lives that porn does.

I believe that whats best for us all is more important than whats ok for one and if we're going to be specific about porn, I fail to see how porn as we have it today, is helping to advance our society in a positive way.

Everything I've mentioned has been turned into a discussion about that one issue. That's still not the point I'm trying to make. Again, I believe all these things are related and all the individual things add up to a bigger problem.

My point in this, and JR' rant thread has still not been countered. My stand is still that as we continue to move toward the "whats right for me" thing and away from a more defined "whats right and whats wrong", we will continue in this moral decline.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

I agree. On the particular issue of sex I don't think any of us would disagree that it's a smart idea to teach our kids about sex when they reach the right age. With things like they are now in society I imagine the "right" age is a lot younger than it was when I was a kid.

But when at every turn, be it on their favorite sitcom, or in a movie, or in the music they listen too kids are having sex thrown at them, a parents job is made infinitely more difficult.

I mean look, when I was growing up the hit sitcoms were Family Ties and shows like it. Those shows touched on the subject of sex and did so in a responsible way. They had a moral to their story.

Kids today grew up to shows like Friends and Two & A Half Men. I LOVE both of those shows, but in the past they would have been CABLE FARE! Or at the least after 10 PM on weeknights out of "prime time".

Week after weeek Charlie Harper is sleeping with two or three different women and dumping them, and the audience laughs. Worse yet they have a pre-teenage boy (who is now teenage) that see's it all and thinks it's perfectly normal and acceptable.

The normal progression of things dictates that we weren't going to just keep retelling the same stories in the style of Family Ties for the next 100 years. But it saddens me that we've gotten to the point where we've made sex an intrigal part of everything, and taken almost all morality out of it.

Everyone wants to keep going back to the parent, and no doubt, it starts there, but it's never been harder for a parent to get a message across to their kid. Who are most kids gonna emulate? Their unhip, "old' dad? Or those cool guys on "FRIENDS".

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

WebGuy wrote:

My point in this, and JR' rant thread has still not been countered. My stand is still that as we continue to move toward the "whats right for me" thing and away from a more defined "whats right and whats wrong", we will continue in this moral decline.

But who's version of right and wrong do we take? If we were a true democratic society, we would go with the majority vote. I would love a chance to vote on everything Congress does. And I don't trust my representatives to submit my vote.

Of course, you're going to think you're right, I'm going to think I'm right, and someone else will think that they're right. For every issue we can argue our side, and we may never agree. That's why we're in America, so hopefully we can use a democratic system so we don't have one person over us all deciding what's right and wrong.

But, as I hinted above, I believe the system is flawed. I think we can all agree that America is not at it's best right now. I'm doubtful that the decisions that are being made are what the majority of us would agree with.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

I agree with both JR and Web; it IS much harder nowdays to be a parent for all of the reasons you both have stated.

I also agree that many, if not the majority of shows on tv are really pushing the button when it comes to what they're showing and the times they're showing those shows. Truthfully, that is the only reason that I had cable tv installed when my girls were younger.....there wasn't anything on regular tv that was suitable for them to watch, cable offered Disney. All of those shows are based on the theory sex sells; and it does, otherwise none of them would still be on. Music and movies, yes, they're full of it too....making it harder and harder for parents to find suitable entertainment options for their kids. I look at PG-13 movies and think to myself, "wow, they're getting extremely close to an R rating" and they just keep right on pushing for how close they can get to that line without actually crossing it. There have been quite a few PG-13s that in my opinion should've been R; but people responsible for making/rating movies are looking at that R rating on the film and know it's going to lose money in the theaters because now a whole age group can't get in to see it.....so they keep pushing to see just how close they can get to it without actually earning that R rating.

And Web, I do agree with you......as a society, we will continue in the decline of morals. And it's going to be because as a society, we can't decide what's right and what's wrong for the majority because the majority can't even agree. As you've said, there are people over here in this corner, people over there in that corner, and people in the middle. Who will represent all of these people and their thoughts/feelings? And most importantly, do we, as thinking individuals, really want someone else deciding this for us? That's something to carefully ponder, at least in my mind it is. smile

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Who's version of right and wrong do we take? Lets consider the options and chose the one that makes the most sense. Maybe thats not what feels best. Maybe thats not what fits my own beliefs or my own selfish desires. Lets all put aside what we think we want personally and let's consider what is going to get us where we want to go. Wouldn't that be the ideal situation?

Easier said than done, I know.

Getting there would mean ALL of us would have to get to the point where we ALL can say "What I think about this may not be what is best for us all".

Will we agree on everything? Nope, but I think if our goal truly is to do whats BEST FOR US ALL and the next generation to follow, then we ALL need to step back and look at those things, take a stand against things that are not helping us, and work at turning it around. Applying more of the same is not working. More of the same is not going to help us get where we want to be.

So, just where do we want to be 20 years from now? What does your ideal world look like?

I've avoided doing this throughout all my posts, but I'm going to the Bible on this one. I know we all don't believe what the Bible has to say, but please set aside where it came from and consider it for what it says . . .

Jesus told us that the two most important things for us are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and might, AND to love your neighbor as yourself.

Ok, so lets not focus on the Love your God part because that doesn't apply to us all. I can understand, and accept that fact.

Lets take the next part. Its even been said a few times here that the "love your neighbor" part is a good thing. Can we agree on that? Hopefully so.

So what is love your neighbor?

Again, this comes from the Bible, but take it for the words it is:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Can we agree that that is a pretty good description of what real love should look like? I certainly hope so.

If we honestly, truly loved each other in that manner, would we have all these morality, and behavior problems?

If that truly is our goal for this world, then shouldn't what is "right" only be whatever helps advance us toward that kind of love? Not, what feels good to me right now, but what is best of my neighbor (us all) now AND for the future?

IF that truly is our goal for this society, lets look at each individual issue and ask, "which option is going to get us where we want to be?" If we truly love as to the definition above, its not "which one do I personally want", and its not even what the majority wants, but what is BEST to get us where we want to be.

If the majority is unknowingly moving in a direction that is taking them away from where even they want to be, maybe the majority needs someone to run up front and say "Hey guys, if you really wanted to go North, its that way." The majority may not be headed in the best direction to reach their destination just because they are the biggest group.

If we ALL were able to objectively focus on what is best to move us toward where we want to be rather than our own selfish desires, we would agree on a lot more "right" things then we think we would.

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Ok, you're suggestions are something I could live with. They're reasonable and well thought out. And I do believe if people from every walk of life were to gather together, sit down and talk, without confrontations taking place, they would indeed realize that they have a lot more in common with each other than they thought. They may also realize they all pretty much have the same vision for themselves and their children, and those childrens' children.

If such a thing as you suggest were to happen, that people set aside their own selfish desires and work together for the common good, with love in their hearts for each other, then yes, I do believe we could shift away from the decline we're on and begin heading uphill instead of continuing to spiral downward.

**See guys, I can be reasonable. I'm not always a flamin' liberal.** wink

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Should we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya now?

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

We'll hold hands, but we're gonna rock out to We Built This City!!!

biggrin

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

ghostdancer wrote:

We'll hold hands, but we're gonna rock out to We Built This City!!!

Can it be my new Extended 12" Single version?!?! Nine minutes and forty seven seconds of eighties ecstacy

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

Yeah, that's why I mentioned the song; I was hoping you'd bring it along with you. I didn't want to ask you outright. I'm too shy to do something like that.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

You always struck me as really shy and introverted

ghostdancer · Ghost In The Machine

I'm working on becoming a more outgoing and extroverted person, but I'm not having much success with it. hmm