Atheist Buses! - Freeze-Frame Radio

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

RE: Atheist Buses!

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I found another article. I don't think we need to assume who the sign is meant for, here it is from one of the organizer's mouth:

"The message isn't aimed at people with religious beliefs it's aimed at atheists and agnostics. Most commentators recognised the slogan as a simple statement of non-religious belief and appreciated that it was designed to reassure people there was no reason to worry about being non-religious," she said. "People can lead a happy, enjoyable and rewarding life without religion."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/atheist-bus-campaign-nationwide

Ultimo · King of the Ring

Yeah I think it is aimed at people in the middle, I don't think its a recruiting poster, just a though provking thing, just listen to Imagine by John Lennon, that's the thoughts it makes me thinks off.

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

Jeremy Riggs wrote:
Although I think Mema has the answer. The bus company probably wouldn't accept something so blunt.

I am the empiress of blunt in my office. I've had to learn the strategic use of "probably" to keep out of trouble with HR. My guess is the verbiage for this sign was written by someone who has the same understanding of the benefit of sliding a "probably" in there.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:

Can't someone not worry about eternal damnation, be happy, yet still be a good person?

"Good" by human standards? Certainly.

I think the point that most non-Christians miss about us (and that the sign in question shows) is that being a Christian, believing in God, and even eternal salvation is not about being a "good person". Its impossible to be good enough to meet God's standards.

Our Christian Bible tells us that we're all sinners. Even us Christians are sinners. I prove that most (if not) ever day. I'm not proud of that, but it happens. Its human nature.

The difference is that God offers forgivness. Its our choice to accept that or deny it. Disbelief, or rejecting Him is denying the forgivness that He offers. I chose to believe and accept that forgivness. Does that make me a better person than you by human standards? No, not at all. Does that mean you're not a good person by human standards? Not at all.

The differenece is that in God's eyes, I'm forgiven becuase I chose to accept the forgiveness He offers. It doesn't mean that I'm a better human than you, but yes, God does look at the forgiven differently than the non-forgiven.

If my accepting His forgivness IS REAL, then I will repent or be sorry when I screw up. I will feel bad that I have screwed up yet again. If I'm truly sorry for the things I do wrong, I will attempt to make better choices next time . . . not based on what is considered "good" by human or society's standards, but what is "good" based on God's standards.

Its easier for me to understand an athiest who thinks there is no God at all than someone who thinks God may exist, but yet choses to reject what He has to offer. I struggle to understand how someone can believe that God is real, but yet think they can somehow dictate to HIM what they need to do to have eternal life with Him.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Mad Mema wrote:

Jeremy Riggs wrote:
Although I think Mema has the answer. The bus company probably wouldn't accept something so blunt.

I am the empiress of blunt in my office. I've had to learn the strategic use of "probably" to keep out of trouble with HR. My guess is the verbiage for this sign was written by someone who has the same understanding of the benefit of sliding a "probably" in there.

SO like, if someone does something bone-headed around the office you say something like "You are PROBABLY the stupiest person I've ever worked with!"

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

I don't think the sign is mentioning anything, one way or another, about being a good person.

And belief is only loosely a choice. I can't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll believe in God from now on." To me, following a religion that you don't truly believe in is worse than following the "wrong" thing.

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

I've used that... but my favorite is "Next time, you should PROBABLY put down the crack pipe before you touch my network. If you break my network again, I will PROBABLY stomp you a new mudhole on your way to the unemployment office!"

confuzzed · Permanent State of Confusion

I probably shouldn't tick Mema off.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:

I don't think the sign is mentioning anything, one way or another, about being a good person.

And belief is only loosely a choice. I can't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll believe in God from now on." To me, following a religion that you don't truly believe in is worse than following the "wrong" thing.

You're the one that brought up all the stuff about "being a good person" I was just responding to that.

I think belief is largely a choice. If you say "I'm going to believe in God from now on", but in your heart you do not believe, then no, is not going to happen. But if you are unsure or undecided, I think you first have to make that choice that you are going to believe and give him a chance to prove to you that he's real. We all can't expect God to come at us with the force that he used on Paul.

The first choice is seeking Him with an open heart and mind and giving Him a chance. You have to make that choice, God's not likely going to hit you with a cement block to force you to believe in Him. I have yet to meet anyone (that I know of) who truly and honestly made a choice to seek out God but didn't find Him (unless you are the first).

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

WebGuy wrote:

MzHartz wrote:

I don't think the sign is mentioning anything, one way or another, about being a good person.

And belief is only loosely a choice. I can't wake up one day and say, "I think I'll believe in God from now on." To me, following a religion that you don't truly believe in is worse than following the "wrong" thing.

You're the one that brought up all the stuff about "being a good person" I was just responding to that.
I think belief is largely a choice. If you say "I'm going to believe in God from now on", but in your heart you do not believe, then no, is not going to happen. But if you are unsure or undecided, I think you first have to make that choice that you are going to believe and give him a chance to prove to you that he's real. We all can't expect God to come at us with the force that he used on Paul.
The first choice is seeking Him with an open heart and mind and giving Him a chance. You have to make that choice, God's not likely going to hit you with a cement block to force you to believe in Him. I have yet to meet anyone (that I know of) who truly and honestly made a choice to seek out God but didn't find Him (unless you are the first).

Okay, I added the word "person." Let me rephrase that. I don't think the sign was mentioning anything one way or another about, "if your actions are "right" or "good", if its legal, and you want to do it, do it." Like the organizer said, it's about reassuring people that it's okay not to be religious.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I'm assuming you haven't had many theistic conversations with people who have chosen a religion other than Christianity. And that's not surprising, many of us are afraid of mentioning it and being ostracized. But most of the people that I've talked to about not being Christian have considered themselves Christian at one point or another. And I don't mean just show up at church, I mean actually thought they believed.

Personally, I considered myself Christian until high school. My mom never expressed her beliefs on me in any way. But my grandma on my dad's side is methodist. Although as far as I know she didn't go to church, she read the bible every day, along with a book that had daily inspirational passages which she sometimes shared with me. But my grandma on my mom's side was VERY religious, and mennonite. She took me to church whenever she could, and I went to vacation bible school every summer. I had friends there. I liked going.

In middle school and high school, many of my friends were also very religious. I went to church with them. As I matured, I did seek out God. I read the bible, I prayed, I wrote songs, I put my heart into it. This was at a time when it wasn't "cool" to go to church with friends anymore, and I was too old to stay over at my grandmas (she was a little far away for her to pick me up to take me to church every Sunday, it would've been too long of a drive for her). I was on my own. This was my time of personal discovery in multiple ways.

I can't think of one catalyst that made me realize that I didn't really believe. But at some point, I realized that I was being told what I should believe, and I weighed it against what I really felt was true. In a way, I'm still on that journey.

garougal · Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult

MzHartz wrote:

I can't think of one catalyst that made me realize that I didn't really believe. But at some point, I realized that I was being told what I should believe, and I weighed it against what I really felt was true. In a way, I'm still on that journey.

Mz, you've got a courage of heart that is truly admirable. Though I can't say i understand your personal experiences, I empathize with them and respect your seeking spirit. smile

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:

Like the organizer said, it's about reassuring people that it's okay not to be religious.

I just can't believe that this group is spending all that money simply as a public service with no additional agenda.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

WebGuy wrote:

MzHartz wrote:

Like the organizer said, it's about reassuring people that it's okay not to be religious.

I just can't believe that this group is spending all that money simply as a public service with no additional agenda.

It's really not that much different than churches putting up inspirational billboards. Often, they don't even have the name of the church on them, they just want to get the message out.

Like I said before, it's lonely not being Christian. Sometimes it's nice to know that there's someone else out there that feels the way you do, and sometimes someone needs to say, "Hey, you're not alone." I really wish I knew what the other posters said. But if there's a widespread message on posters criticizing people for what they do and do not believe, do people really need an alterior motive for putting up other posters that convey a message of understanding?

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:
It's really not that much different than churches putting up inspirational billboards. Often, they don't even have the name of the church on them, they just want to get the message out.

*clip*

do people really need an alterior motive for putting up other posters that convey a message of understanding?

I think it is different becuase as I stated earlier, this is a direct calling out and naming of God.

If this is not intended to be an attack on God why didn't they say something like "All religions are false", or "There are no real gods".

I can and do see how how it is probably lonely not being Chrisitan or at least willing to claim you are. What I don't get or see is how that message on the bus is a message of "Athiest understanding". Its CLEARLY worded to play on doubts and concerns of "middle ground" people. You will not convince me that its meant for Athiests only.

I was also thinking . . . what if they would have called Buddha out by name? I suspect it would be a totally different story.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

Buddha would be a different story, but for different reasons. Namely, Buddha isn't a God, and Buddha is a symbol of happiness.

But really, I think atheists would feel the same if the sign said, "There probably are no Gods," or "There probably is no Goddess." I think you would feel different about it because it wasn't your religion that was mentioned.

At this point though, there really is nothing more I can say. The organizers say that the sign is geared towards atheists and agnostics, and you say that you don't believe them. I don't think there is any way for one atheist to reach out to another publicly without being ostracized in some form, and this is a positive campaign.

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

I decided to check back in on this thread... fascinating discussion. I guess what surprises me is to hear that anyone would feel like they had to hide their own personal beliefs and opinions on such matters. Mz, it saddens me to hear that you feel that way.

I live in the heart of Christian Conservative country, yet I know people of all different faiths, athiests, agnostics, and even a few who sincerely believe the aliens put us here. At one point or another, most of the people I know have in some way mentioned what their personal suasion is in regard to God, Allah, Buddah, L. Ron Hubbard, the aliens... obviously, opinions and beliefs vary. I too have had people tell me that I am going to burn in hell because I don't subscribe to their belief system. To them, my response is A) It's quite possible that I will burn in hell, but trust me on this... it is for far better reasons than simply not sharing your beliefs as that is the LEAST of my offenses, and B) If I find myself burning in hell, I suspect I'll be in good company. Usually, that is about the end of the attempted guilt trip.

If you truly believe in a diety, the lack thereof, or perhaps the aliens... be proud of your beliefs, stand tall especially when they disagree with others. By forming the opinion you hold, you have taken ownership of your course toward your eternity (or not) and that is no small thing. Nothing to feel bad about in that.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

In my own family I have several examples of what I take as signs of Gods existence. I know non-believers will dismiss such things as coincidence, or exaggerated stories, but for me they confirm my faith while at the same time helping me realize I have so very far to go in finding my own path to God.

My family has several extremely devoted Catholics in it, and in their lives they've had some incredible experiences that we've all been able to witness. They tell me that somebody's listening.

I just want to share this story. Take it for what it is.

Before I was born and shortly into the period after my birth BOTH of my grandfathers were not pleasant men. As with many men from their era, they drank heavily, came home and tended to be abusive to their spouses and children.

My mothers father would come home drunk, drag his children out of bed and demand that they tell him they loved them. His wife, my grandmother spent night after night in the kitchen window doing rosary's, praying he would safely make it home. One night she found him in below freezing temperatures at the foot of their back stairs (they lived on the second floor). She somehow dragged him up the full flight of stairs and into the safety of the house. Had she not found him he'd be dead.

This went on from shortly after they were married until they had six of their eight children.

My grandmothers sister gave her a small statue of Jesus that was meant to be hung on a wall. She said it was so ridiculously small that putting it on the wall was pointless. It was about two inches tall, but it was blessed by a priest and grandmother wanted to keep it. One of her sons made a small block of wood from a bigger block of wood and glued the little statuette onto it.

She put it on her TV to "watch over" her family. Several months later my grandfathers drinking got to be too much for her to handle. People were telling her he owed money for bar tabs and demanding she make the payment. He was staying out every night until bar closing. The situation was getting desperate. One night when he was out she kneeled before that statuette and said simply that she couldn't handle it anymore and she was placing him in Gods hands.

My grandfather never got drunk again. My grandmother said almost immediately the next day her sense of worry was gone and over the next few weeks she noticed my grandfather made a complete change in his lifestyle. All of his first six children saw it too. He found God. Or maybe God found him. By the time I was old enough to remember him my Grandfather was the sweetest man, who told me every time I walked into his house to thank Jesus. That statue on the TV.

My grandmother still has that statue, now it's in my mothers house while my grandmother lives there with her.

Now. I don't know that I'm on the right path. I'm so far from perfect it's scary. But the most devoted people I know seem to experience these gifts from God. I've seen three or four examples of little miracles. Maybe I'm just seeing what I want, but I believe if you take the time to find God you will. And the longer you spend in his presence the less it becomes about faith and the more it becomes about the comfort of knowing you're headed in the right direction.

For whatever reason, I felt the need to share this story today.

I guess I just want to illustrate the point that Christians aren't just blindly following their faith. It's been my experience that the TRULY devoted are rewarded, and not only after death. To me, there's got to be something to that.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

MzHartz wrote:

The organizers say that the sign is geared towards atheists and agnostics, and you say that you don't believe them.

Thats right, I don't believe them. Maybe I'm wrong, but in the 10th post in this thread you said:

Judging from the article, I think the campaign is aimed at the undecideds, not at fellow atheists. Hence, the "probably."

So, at one time, you thought the same thing.

Now you're disagreeing with my stance that this is intended for those "middle ground" people and you're saying that it is only meant for athiests as a kind of support system or athiest community support thing.

I'm done now too.

I have no hard feelings towards you or anyone else over this discussion. Ultimo asked what we thought. You guys should know by now that if you don't want to know what I think, don't ask. I have expressed my thoughts. Talking it through and "debating" things like this brings out ideas and also helps each individual really think about what they think/believe for themselves.

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

I figured I would stay out of the bulk of the debate, but for what it is worth here is my opinion: If I saw the advertisement without any other background on it, I would laugh and wonder to myself who is trying to sell what with that advertising tag line. Absent further information about it, I'd put it out of my head as ineffective at making a sale. It would not jump out at me as an endorsement of athiesm. With the further explanation, I say that it is as reasonable for the athiests to pay for these ads as it is for the faithful to pay for the "Got God?" billboards I see along I-35. I find neither offensive.

Personally, I believe there is a God. I believe this because I've lived through more than one situation that I should not have, most notably the one I celebrate as "Undead Day". After reviewing the photos and the accident report, divine intervention seems to be the explanation of my continued existence. Even my self-proclaimed agnostic mother credits the almighty with that one. As I have stated before on the Forum, I'm not an organized religion person, but I'm glad that it exists for those who find comfort and peace in it. I'm also glad that I live in a country and a time where people are free to hold and express whatever beliefs they wish, including athiesm.

Ultimo · King of the Ring

Thanks for everyone who has taken the time to comment and discuss this, It means alot to me, I know we all have different opinions on these things and thats what I love, at the end of the day, as MadMema said, you should be proud of your belief or lack there off, and thats why I wanted to bring up this news story, I am very open about my lack of belief and always will be, but I am also very happy to hear about other peoples thoughts and beliefs, I am an open book and will listen to any view, it does no good to close off your mind to other thoughts and feelings. So thank you everyone.

smile

garougal · Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult

I wanted to chime in my agreement with you, Ultimo. I believe that through dialogue and educating each other on our differing beliefs it creates a benefit for every one of us. It prevents faith from being blind. It allows us to dispell our own misconceptions and reinforce what is in our hearts. It allows every one of us the opportunity to express our own individual spirituality and life philosophy in a way that we examine ourselves and open our own perspective in a way to create harmony with others. In short, to quote a friend, it helps each of us in our own way be the best we can be...the best Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist or other as possible. An open mind is the key to wisdom.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

This is not pointed at you, Heather, but you mentioned the "open mind" part which brought up these thoughts.

I have a problem accepting the "open mind" syndrome.

Yes, I agree that when searching for what you believe, you need an open mind. Honestly looking at all possibilities takes an open mind. I'm still with you there.

My issue comes from the popular idea that an open mind also means everything is right . . . being open minded to the fact that if atheism is right for Ultimo, and Christianity is right for me then its right for both of us.

My problem with that in this example, is that we both CAN NOT be right (true). Either what we both refer to as (Edit to add- Assuming that what we both refer to is the same "God") "God" exists or not. It can't be both. I've said this before, but it comes down to truth being truth no matter what we believe. An open mind will not change the truth. No matter what you believe 2+2=4. Having an open mind to it possibly being 5 does not make it true. It may seem right to you, or me, but that does not make it true.

I can't "prove" that God exists. Ultimo can't "prove" that God doesn't exist. But no matter what we believe, the truth is that either God exists or he doesn't. Having an open mind about the possibilities does not change the truth of if he exists or not.

Some of you may find this hard to believe but I went through a point in my life in my late 20's where I really did question God's existence. I really did search for my answers with an open mind. In the end, I decided that a creator God makes more sense to me. So yes, in that manner I agree that an open mind is necessary, but I don't agree with some who tend to push "open mind" to mean everything is true if its "right for me" where in some cases it simply can not be both ways.

-- Edited by WebGuy at 15:02, 2009-01-07

garougal · Cleverly Disguised As A Responsible Adult

Perhaps this needed more elaboration, but with the limited time I had to comment I'm afraid I didn't get the complete point across. Please understand this is expressed with the utmost respect for everyone's beliefs.

When I mentioned an open mind being the key to wisdom, it was not meant to be a matter of questioning your personal beliefs. Each person makes that choice on their own. However, dialogue does in fact educate us. For example, I think someone explained to you that a buddha is not a deity, probably something you did not understand fully before if I read the conversation correctly. I learned something about how your religion conceptualizes sin, something I did not understand completely.

We each choose our own beliefs, we each decide what is right, and those beliefs and opinions will not always agree. But when I try to apply an open mind, it is about learning what you believe, sometimes why you believe it, so that I learn from it and exercise respect for it - even though I may not share your beliefs. That knowledge was gained by being receptive to hearing you out, and through it I gain understanding. So, in my view, I am wiser for it and can apply my knowledge to be a better Buddhist. I hope this explains with a little more clarity what I intended with my comments, and thank you for sharing.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Can I just say that it's been my experience in life that anyone who doesn't agree fully with my point of view tends to suck?

Now get in line behind me please! We're invading France in the morning. Those pansies will never know what hit em!

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

OOOO! Going after the cheese eating surrender monkeys? I'm SOOOOO there!!

Web, you are correct... there is only one definitive answer to the existence of God. Alas, none of us will know that answer for sure (hopefully) for a very long time. Invariably, someone will ultimately be proven wrong, and you said it very well when you made the point that if you are wrong, you have lost nothing for having believed. If you are right, then there will be a whole lot of people missing the promised eternal life. With that said, I am an advocate of open mindedness for the simple reason that I fully believe in the fundamental rights of every person, including the right to be dead wrong. If someone wants to believe that 2+2=5 instead of 4, that is fine with me. It is wrong, and will never be right, but in the long run that is not going to make a difference in the course of my life.

Jeremy Riggs · 2011 Super Bowl Champions!

Mad Mema wrote:

OOOO! Going after the cheese eating surrender monkeys? I'm SOOOOO there!!

Cheese eating surrender monkeys! I LOVE THAT PHRASE!!!! That's going in the memory bank for future use

Mad Mema · Bad Biker Granny

Must give credit where credit is due... that phrase came from Groundskeeper Willie on The Simpsons.

WebGuy · Doesn't Do Windows

Mad Mema wrote:

I am an advocate of open mindedness for the simple reason that I fully believe in the fundamental rights of every person, including the right to be dead wrong.

Oh, yes. I fully agree with that. I hope that I've never given the impression that I don't think everyone has the right to believe, worship, or follow whatever or however they want. If I try to share my beliefs with you, that doesn't mean I don't feel you have the right to believe what you want.

My problem with a blanket "open mindedness" is how some apply it to mean "everything is right" (which to me means "true") When looking at different religions, in many cases, it just can't be the case that everything is true just because its "true for me". That is a dangerous place to be standing.

When searching for something as important your soul's eternity, I feel that an ACTIVE mind is also as, if not more, important to employ than an OPEN mind.

I mean, if my neighbor is a member of "The Mystic Bobbleheads" church, I'm not going to consider his beliefs with an open mind. Think of me as you will, but I won't ever consider that a bobblehead is the answer to eternal peace. If he wants to follow that, fine, that is his right, but I will remain closed minded to such ideas. I will try to show him why I believe his religion is going to fail him in the end, but he still has the right to make those decsions for himself.

I believe the key to wisdom is truth, not trends.

MzHartz · Permanent Vacation

You know, open-minded really has several different meanings. I think when people ask someone to be open minded, they want verbal assurances that you're accepting that they are free to believe what they want to believe.