OK, it's Friday, I'm feeling fiesty, and Jenny Cat has whetted my appetite for a potential "HOT BUTTON" topic. I'm going to try to straddle the line of spiritual yet relevant.
Here goes: Who would you never expect to see in Heaven, and how would you feel if you did?
i can't think of anyone. the devil? i mean, everyone can repent. so first i thought of saddam hussein. but say he repented. then i thought maybe an atheist? but what if the rules are different than I think. so i don't know.
Ah, ha! Thank You Jenny! You already raised a point I was hoping would come up. Your response will be based on what you believe about the requirements for getting in. I know of a couple of names that hit the target of this discussion, but I started the thing, so I want to hold back and see where the discussion goes.
Well, evne though i'm a right-wing fanatical republican, i'm really a softie. so i wish everyone to get into heaven. I don't think it's fair for people to get sent to hell forever. so some people may deserve it for a little while or something. but eternity? i don't even know what that word means.
Has anyone read Anne Rice's Memnoch, the Devil? She has some interesting theories about hell. Mostly, everyone goes to hell until they convince God and the Devil that they're good enough to go to heaven.
Personally, I can't give much opinion on the subject, I don't believe either one exist.
I like that idea. I'm going to read that book again. i read it a million years ago. now MZ, don't be an atheist. it's depressing and i can't accept it.
By the technical definition, I'm atheist, but that doesn't mean I'm not highly spiritual. What I believe in doesn't fall into any of the religions I know of, but it's probably closest to Taoism.
Basically, I believe that the universe and afterlife is too complex for the human mind to comprehend, and you just have to do the best you can with what you have, because you don't know if it'll bite you in the butt later. Karma, basically.
ooooo MZ. i like that. i really do... cuz my mind definately cant comprehend some of the stuff i SEE here, with my own eyes. so that after life stuff has got to be way out there. i love this subject.
Hitler - at first I would be scared. Then I would wonder if I was in the right place. Eventually, I would talk to him, maybe even reprimand him. Then I would ask St. Peter what the deal was about this guy getting in.
Mustafa- since he committed suicide I would expect him to be in hell but then again God has his reasons. I'd definitely have to ask St. Peter what the acception was w/ him. I might be a little scared seeing as to how he was a terrible ruler but I would probably provoke him to beat up Hitler. Then heaven would be free of the bad guys (no just kidding - what I can't be funny on the serious thread?)
Even though I'm Christian, I believe Religion is a personal belief and no one person's Religious beliefs are wrong. This is what makes people fight and war in the world. I have learned long ago not to get into discussions like this. We all believe in what we believe because someone put information in our heads that this is the right way and we excepted it.
Ok, now I'll stop preaching to the choir...
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Sometimes, when i'm lonely... i crawl into a laundry basket and tickle my ears. But, Some times I don't...
Sparkel does have a good point. I told wef this was heavy for a Friday. Next thing you know he's gonna throw out something like gayrights. Just an example of the controversial boardman. Just cuz he's on the board doesn't mean he can pull this stuff especially not on Friday.
People want to believe that there is more than one way up the mountain. There very well may be, because none of us know the thoughts and mind of God other than what he revealed to us.
That having been said, I think all religions have an element of truth. Since religions are mans way to get to truth and God is Truth, that would only make sense.
However, God sent his only son as a final revelation to let us know what we could possibly have had no other way to know.
Without getting too deep into theology, Christianity has withstood the onslaught of time, man's worst instincts and maybe even an element of spiritual warfare because It was Divinely inspired.
Pope Benedict says that we are suffering from the tyranny of relativism. Where everybodies ideas are right and nobody is wrong. As I said, evry religion has an element of truth, or it couldnt last. But there are greater degrees of truth. If we are searching for truth, God is faithful and help us find it. That's what our lives are about...searching for truth, searching for HIM.
Well put, Dylan, well put. Obviously everyone knows that Christianity is the belief that I hold true, and the names I was speaking of earlier are Aileen Wuornos, David Berkowitz (Son of Sam), and Jeffrey Dahmer. I can't be totally sure about Dahmer, but I've heard that he came to Christ before being killed. Wuornos and Berkowitz both were/are believers (Berkowitz is still alive).
I must admit that as I have tried to mature in my beliefs this is one point that has taken a lot of prayer for me to accept and understand. I really had to search the works based vs. grace based salvation debate. It has been through this doorway that many other points of faith have come into sharper focus.
Great discussion guys! No arguing or hurt feelings, just lively debate. You guys rock! Let's keep it going!
I was listening not too long ago about a professor that was travelling abroad. He was by his own accounts, not a nice guy. He was pronounced dead while waiting for his surgeon to come in. It was a weekend and health care where he was wasnt like it is here.
To make a very interesting but long story short, he was being taken to hell, and being tormented when he thought of Sunday school as a little boy, the last time he believed in God..He started to sing the little song .."Jesus loves me"...and called out the name Jesus. The tormentors were paralyzed with fear and he was allowed to return...he was resuccitated.
I know some people might be incredulous when they hear a story like that. But I also like to think it illustrates that God gives everyone every opportunity to come to Him.
That's one point that really causes one to pause, Dylan. If you figure that our years are based on the life of Christ, then we have heard this message for 2005 years, give or take. Add in the times BC all the way back to Moses or to Abraham and that is an awful long time that God has been trying to reach us. Talk about patient! No one can really say, "I never knew!", or, "I didn't get a chance!"
What we do with that information and choice is up to us.
ok, so in order to go to heaven, all i have to do is beleive that Jesus died on the cross for my sins right? so I beleive it. seems kind of simple. and what's to keep me from beleiving that AND a whole bunch of other stuff? is that cheating? i don't know. this stuff confuses me sometimes. seems to simple and too complex all at the same time.
I rededicated my life to Christ about 15 years ago.
It's my nature to have a kind of linear thinking where point "a" takes me to "b", etc. For me, the question starts at the beginning . . . Is there a God? A God that created everything we know, and to whom I will have to answer when I die?
As I look at the evidence of God vs. creation, in my mind God makes sense. The "science" of creation is so full of holes I don't see how "scientists" themselves can believe it. Science is supposed to be based on proof and tests. When you look at creation, it is theories based only on other theories, not evidence. The theories of carbon dating etc. have been proven many times to be flawed. If evolution is true, and we evolved out of some sludge, why are the fossil records only of certain species? Where are all the fossils of different species as one evolved into another? None have been found.
So, at point "a" I do believe in one all powerful creator God. That takes me to point "b", the Bible. As I read the Bible, under the influence of my believe in God, it all makes sense to me. It all fits together. The coming of Jesus was predicted in the Bible many years before it happened. People saw him die on the cross and people saw him walking after he rose from the grave. I know of no other religious figure that has done that. For that reason, I do believe that Jesus really is the son of God as the Bible states.
When Jesus was on earth as a man, he said that "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one will get to the Father but through me". Jesus clearly said that a relationship with himself is the only way to heaven. He left no other conditions on that, he said the HE is the ONLY way. Jesus said that if you don't know him while you are on earth, he will not know you on judgement day. That's not my idea, that is what the Bible says about it. At that point, I am left to make a choice of if I am going to believe that to be true or not.
So, if you ask me if there is more than one way to heaven I will tell you that I don't believe so. My reasoning for that is that I believe that God is real, the Bible is true and He set it up that way. It's not a "us Christains are superior" kind of thing at all . . . it's what the Bible says and I believe that to be true.
Are there other ways to heaven? If you believe there are, what is that based on? A belief alone? Does a belief make something true? No. The real truth is there no matter what we believe.
Does my belief in God and the Bible make it true? No.
Do I believe God and the Bible to be true? Yes. That is faith. My believe in that is why I think Jesus was telling the truth when he said that HE is the ONLY way.
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"It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
Dovetails brings up an interesting point, creationism vs. evolution. Being a scientist myself by training, I tend to believe the scientists who are developing the theories, although I know full well that they could be wrong - there was a time when we thought the sun revolved around the earth. That said, I am also a Christian and I believe in the Bible and God and Jesus and the Bible's account of creation. So, the quandry for me is, how do I reconcile the two. Well, my thinking has always been, why can;t they both be true, with God overseeing it all? God created the Earth and the sky, and Adam and Eve. Who's to say that he just didn;t mention to us that there was a lot that went on in the creation that lead to Adam and Eve? The Bible says creation took 7 days, but what is the definition a day in this context? Maybe 7 days took 4 billion of our years to complete before Adam and Eve appeared, or evolved, onto the scene? I feel that I can believe in evolution, but the caveat is that it was an evolution that God created and oversaw, an evolution that he just didn't give us all the details about in the Bible.
Ok, thoughts on this anyone? And be gentle, I'm opening myself up a lot on this one, and I'm still not sure I've thought this one through enough yet, but I'm interested in you all's thoughts.
Secondly, I agree w/ the part about how do we know what a day was. Because it could have been totally different time. I've always tended to think that the Bible was true, but I could see where you are coming from. I can see no one else wanted to touch this one because I picked it from the bottom of the page. I give you credit for putting yourself out there.
